AFCI Everthing!

[tesi1]

afci

afci

i shure would like to know who sells afci recpt. leviton, p& s, have both told us through our suppliers they are not out as of yet,
and was not shure when they were going to be out. the nfpa should only allow a new code to be on the books only when the product has
been in manufactering and on the market for a mininum of 1 year. they also should quit being the new sales and marketing arm
for the manufacters.

 

[jap]

And guess who lobbied hard to get them into the code before they were ready for the market:roll: They even put a effective date in the code because they knew they would not be ready yet at press time. It was nothing more than business decision and a lot of R&D money would have to wait three more years before it starts seeing return on investment if it were to wait for next code cycle.

Surprisingly I have not had any callbacks for nuisance AFCI tripping. I have not installed a lot of them up to this point, as I have been doing more non dwelling work in general, but have installed a few the past few years. Does this mean maybe my installation practices are better and I am not creating conditions that will trip them than some people that have callbacks, or have I just been lucky? I don't play the lottery so I really have no measurement for lucky.

As far as the ignorance comment - I didn't even know who was being mentioned when I replied and was just replying in general that I think it is ignorant to replace with non like component when something gives you problems without trying to find known causes for trouble first. I agree AFCI's may still have unresolved issues, but I still do see this approach from some people in other areas, like replace a GFCI with a standard breaker or receptacle, or if a 20 amp breaker trips frequently just put a 30 amp in its place. Those solutions are treating symptoms and not finding a cause to deal with.

If you have'nt had the privilege of troubleshooting a nuisance tripping Arc Fault then you are "lucky".

Homeowners who don't like to mess with electricity will generally keep calling someone to try and fix their problem until it is either resolved or they run out of money paying for the service calls or live with always having to go and reset the breaker for some unknown reason.

Otherwise Homeowners who don't mind messing with electricity can always change out the Arc Fault to a standard breaker but then it becomes their responsibility, they pay the
insurance and take on the responsibility.

If I've exhausted all of my efforts to find the culprit, I'm not to proud to have them have someone give them a second opinion. But I will not change out the AFCI to a Standard
breaker.

JAP>

 

[kwired]

If you have'nt had the privilege of troubleshooting a nuisance tripping Arc Fault then you are "lucky".

Homeowners who don't like to mess with electricity will generally keep calling someone to try and fix their problem until it is either resolved or they run out of money paying for the service calls or live with always having to go and reset the breaker for some unknown reason.

Otherwise Homeowners who don't mind messing with electricity can always change out the Arc Fault to a standard breaker but then it becomes their responsibility, they pay the
insurance and take on the responsibility.

If I've exhausted all of my efforts to find the culprit, I'm not to proud to have them have someone give them a second opinion. But I will not change out the AFCI to a Standard
breaker.

JAP>

And just what opinion does the HO have of you when the second opinion is some guy that sells them a $5-$7 breaker instead of a $35-$45 breaker takes just minutes to install, and it no longer trips after he is done It is not easy to make such decisions - I know.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

And just what opinion does the HO have of you when the second opinion is some guy that sells them a $5-$7 breaker instead of a $35-$45 breaker takes just minutes to install, and it no longer trips after he is done It is not easy to make such decisions - I know.

Yeah really, Joe Homeowner doesn't know an arc fault vs a conventional breaker for sure. Another kicker here in WI is on a service change out, AFCI's are not required on existing circuits thankfully. Imagine the nightmare trying to find shared neutrals causing trips. There are so many weekend warrior electricians out there that you'd be hard pressed to find an existing older house that hasn't been tinkered with. I hope this and other Forums continue to expose the short comings of AFCI's and perhaps someday the requirement will be rescinded. Meanwhile, the beat goes on.

 

[jmellc]

They will never make a main breaker afci and if they did you would be a fool to use it.

We are fools to use the ones we have to use now and the code authorities are fools for making us do it. That code was bought & paid for by manufacturers. I still say any code that requires AFCI while allowing backstabbing is a code unworthy of any respect.

 

[jmellc]

i shure would like to know who sells afci recpt. leviton, p& s, have both told us through our suppliers they are not out as of yet,
and was not shure when they were going to be out. the nfpa should only allow a new code to be on the books only when the product has
been in manufactering and on the market for a mininum of 1 year. they also should quit being the new sales and marketing arm
for the manufacters.

That reminds me of checking out regs for barn wiring & finding reference to type NMC cable. I called every supply house in town. They had never heard of it. I called Southwire. They had never heard of it. I should have written to NFPA and asked them why no one but them ever heard of it.

BTW, just how many publications does NFPA print now? How much would it cost a person to buy their whole collection for a library? I suspect they are in business to sell books at least as much as to prevent fires.

 

[jmellc]

If you have'nt had the privilege of troubleshooting a nuisance tripping Arc Fault then you are "lucky".

Homeowners who don't like to mess with electricity will generally keep calling someone to try and fix their problem until it is either resolved or they run out of money paying for the service calls or live with always having to go and reset the breaker for some unknown reason.

Otherwise Homeowners who don't mind messing with electricity can always change out the Arc Fault to a standard breaker but then it becomes their responsibility, they pay the
insurance and take on the responsibility.

If I've exhausted all of my efforts to find the culprit, I'm not to proud to have them have someone give them a second opinion. But I will not change out the AFCI to a Standard
breaker.


I hate AFCI's but mostly for the cost. Fortunately, I have had few service calls on nuisance tripping. 1st, I never backstab. Stabbing is shoddy work that leaves many places for arcing. 2nd, I pigtail everything but GFI recepts with downline coverage. Less load & heat on the devices. 3rd, I double check all my splices. I goof one every now & then but not often. 4th, I most often use plastic staples now. No real risk of damaging wire. My few calls on it are where others wired the house. I start wherever the most trouble has been, go through boxes & tighten splices, undo stabs, do pigtails. Found a few obvious bad splices & problem stabs. Only unsolvable I had was where a music system in a bed's headboard kept tripping the breaker. I metered the unit but found nothing wrong, yet it kept tripping breaker. Customer got rid of it. l

 

[jap]

And just what opinion does the HO have of you when the second opinion is some guy that sells them a $5-$7 breaker instead of a $35-$45 breaker takes just minutes to install, and it no longer trips after he is done It is not easy to make such decisions - I know.

His opinion of the guy who installed a $5-$7 dollar breaker would probably change while he was standing in his driveway watching his $180,000.00 house burn down,

I doubt his ill thoughts would be directed at the electrician that refused to install a standard breaker in place of an Arc Fault.

You dont replace an arc fault breaker with a standard breaker just to make yourself look like an electrical hero.

At least I dont.

JAP>

 

[jap]

Fortunately, I havent been on a neusance tripping Arc Fault service call yet that I couldnt fix.
Generally it is because of what you all said, amateurs that didnt know what they were doing.
Generally, if you use quality products and install them professionally, Arc Faults are'nt that big of an issue.
There's thousands of them in place as we speak that are doing thier job just fine.

JAP>

 

[jap]

We are fools to use the ones we have to use now and the code authorities are fools for making us do it. That code was bought & paid for by manufacturers. I still say any code that requires AFCI while allowing backstabbing is a code unworthy of any respect.

I dont think its foolish for people trying to design something to protect your family from being killed in a house fire cause by and arc fault while your asleep at night.

To the contrary I think they deserve a lot of respect for trying to keep you safe.

And although the code allows back stabbing, nobody says you have to.

I dont backstab any of my receptacles.

JAP>

 

[jap]

Yeah really, Joe Homeowner doesn't know an arc fault vs a conventional breaker for sure. Another kicker here in WI is on a service change out, AFCI's are not required on existing circuits thankfully. Imagine the nightmare trying to find shared neutrals causing trips. There are so many weekend warrior electricians out there that you'd be hard pressed to find an existing older house that hasn't been tinkered with. I hope this and other Forums continue to expose the short comings of AFCI's and perhaps someday the requirement will be rescinded. Meanwhile, the beat goes on.

Although everything above is true, if AFCI's were required before the building would pass inspection,

Although it would be a major nightmare and the possibility of having to dismantle the complete house or wiring system,

I could do it, as long as they paid me to do it.

 

[jap]

If you have'nt had the privilege of troubleshooting a nuisance tripping Arc Fault then you are "lucky".

Homeowners who don't like to mess with electricity will generally keep calling someone to try and fix their problem until it is either resolved or they run out of money paying for the service calls or live with always having to go and reset the breaker for some unknown reason.

Otherwise Homeowners who don't mind messing with electricity can always change out the Arc Fault to a standard breaker but then it becomes their responsibility, they pay the
insurance and take on the responsibility.

If I've exhausted all of my efforts to find the culprit, I'm not to proud to have them have someone give them a second opinion. But I will not change out the AFCI to a Standard
breaker.


I hate AFCI's but mostly for the cost. Fortunately, I have had few service calls on nuisance tripping. 1st, I never backstab. Stabbing is shoddy work that leaves many places for arcing. 2nd, I pigtail everything but GFI recepts with downline coverage. Less load & heat on the devices. 3rd, I double check all my splices. I goof one every now & then but not often. 4th, I most often use plastic staples now. No real risk of damaging wire. My few calls on it are where others wired the house. I start wherever the most trouble has been, go through boxes & tighten splices, undo stabs, do pigtails. Found a few obvious bad splices & problem stabs. Only unsolvable I had was where a music system in a bed's headboard kept tripping the breaker. I metered the unit but found nothing wrong, yet it kept tripping breaker. Customer got rid of it. l

Got rid of what? The Music System or the Arc Fault Breaker ?

Depending on how you answer will make up my mind wether to respect you our the customer.

 

[kwired]

His opinion of the guy who installed a $5-$7 dollar breaker would probably change while he was standing in his driveway watching his $180,000.00 house burn down,

I doubt his ill thoughts would be directed at the electrician that refused to install a standard breaker in place of an Arc Fault.

You dont replace an arc fault breaker with a standard breaker just to make yourself look like an electrical hero.

At least I dont.

JAP>

I dont think its foolish for people trying to design something to protect your family from being killed in a house fire cause by and arc fault while your asleep at night.

To the contrary I think they deserve a lot of respect for trying to keep you safe.

And although the code allows back stabbing, nobody says you have to.

I dont backstab any of my receptacles.

JAP>

Most owners only see dollar signs and either functioning or non function (as desired) equipment. They don't understand what it is that they may or may not be protected from. Standard circuit breakers have been around a long time, they ask " isn't that good enough protection?" It always has been before. Even if you give them thorough education on what is going on, it will only stick in their mind for a short time, as they are not electrical professionals, will not deal with the topic all that often afterwards, and the subject will eventually fade away from memory.

When standing in the driveway watching the house burn down - he very well may not be aware of exactly the cause of the fire just yet.

Had a guy nearly 20 years ago that had a house burn down. When building replacement home, he wanted us to reuse the FPE panel that was in the old house. It was not in part of house that was damaged and looked just fine. We convinced him that he would spend more on just a few breakers for that thing then some other panel would cost. Cause of that fire was a faulty appliance BTW and not the FPE panel. Maybe AFCI would have prevented it, but AFCI's did not exist then anyway.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

<BR>&nbsp;I never backstab. Stabbing is shoddy work that leaves many places for arcing l

I respect your opinion but if you have confidence in UL and receptacles are listed for backstabbing, I trust it is a safe and secure practice. After all, isn't that why UL exists? When you think about it, other than bolt ons, circuit breakers are connected to the buss much like a back stabbed wire is connected to the receptacle. Should all breakers be required to be bolt ons?

 

[ptonsparky]

Way back, when I did spec homes, I back stabbed. I replaced enough of those poor connections that we don't do it now. We also stepped up to commercial grade devices because I replaced to dang many of everything in the residential grade. Live long enough and everything seems to wear out.

Don't tell UL, but sometimes their sticker doesn't mean much when things don't work.

 

[Speshulk]

I've installed a lot of receptacles over the years.

I treat the neutral and ground seperation inside the box the same way as I treat the hot to ground seperation inside the box.

Why is the issue of the Neutral touching the ground always coming up?

It should'nt.

JAP>

Laziness

 

[jap]

Most owners only see dollar signs and either functioning or non function (as desired) equipment. They don't understand what it is that they may or may not be protected from. Standard circuit breakers have been around a long time, they ask " isn't that good enough protection?"


Your talking about someone changing a Standard Breaker out to an Arc Fault Breaker.

I'm talking about someone trying to change out an Arc Fault Breaker to a Standard Breaker.


If an Arc Fault is required and in place when I get there, then an Arc Fault Breaker is still going to be there when I leave.

If a Standard Breaker is in place and I dont make any changes that require it to be upgraded to an Arc Fault then the Standard Breaker will be there when I leave.

If a Standard Breaker is in place and I make changes to the circuit that now requires it to be an Arc Fault Circuit, then an Arc Fault Circuit Breaker will be there when I leave.

If the customer asks me to install a standard circuit breaker where I know an Arc Fault is required and I can't convince them that, that is what I am required to do....

Then I leave without doing anything and everything is the way it was before I got there.

JAP>

 

[jmellc]

And just what opinion does the HO have of you when the second opinion is some guy that sells them a $5-$7 breaker instead of a $35-$45 breaker takes just minutes to install, and it no longer trips after he is done It is not easy to make such decisions - I know.

And the average Harry Homeowner does not understand the fact that the authorities forced this crap on us. He thinks we are trying to rip him off by selling him expensive junk, then charging him again to troubleshoot it. But he has a good point. I wish every electrician in the US had showed up at NFPA Headquarters with a pitchfork when this AFCI garbage got started.

 

[jap]

And the average Harry Homeowner does not understand the fact that the authorities forced this crap on us. He thinks we are trying to rip him off by selling him expensive junk, then charging him again to troubleshoot it. But he has a good point. I wish every electrician in the US had showed up at NFPA Headquarters with a pitchfork when this AFCI garbage got started.

If the people I worked for could'nt afford to pay me for the job as I am required to do it , I'd find a different customer base.

I don't understand why gas is so high either, but I dont thin it out to try and make it go further.

 

[jmellc]

Most owners only see dollar signs and either functioning or non function (as desired) equipment. They don't understand what it is that they may or may not be protected from. Standard circuit breakers have been around a long time, they ask " isn't that good enough protection?" It always has been before. Even if you give them thorough education on what is going on, it will only stick in their mind for a short time, as they are not electrical professionals, will not deal with the topic all that often afterwards, and the subject will eventually fade away from memory.

When standing in the driveway watching the house burn down - he very well may not be aware of exactly the cause of the fire just yet.

Had a guy nearly 20 years ago that had a house burn down. When building replacement home, he wanted us to reuse the FPE panel that was in the old house. It was not in part of house that was damaged and looked just fine. We convinced him that he would spend more on just a few breakers for that thing then some other panel would cost. Cause of that fire was a faulty appliance BTW and not the FPE panel. Maybe AFCI would have prevented it, but AFCI's did not exist then anyway.

I am not convinced that the AFCI really prevents a fire under fire conditions. I have purposely shorted an AFCI ckt to trip the breaker. It still makes an arc when tripping the breaker. If dust or dry cloth is present, it can still catch fire.

I have heard so many "if just one child" arguments that I need a puke bucket always handy. How many people are endangered by old decrepit wiring they cannot afford to replace? I have scoped a number of jobs that didn't get done because the cost of AFCI breakers forced it above the strapped homeowner's ability to pay. So HO has to keep his really unsafe system that's been BIL'd for 40 years because he cannot pay for what is being forced on him in a fix up.

I am in the process now of finding/saving relatively good 2nd hand equipment to fix up one guy. Reusing in this way goes against everything I was ever taught but that is the only way I can now get his cost down to what he can pay. And that is with me not charging him for labor. I owe him some favors and will do his job for cost of materials & permit.

Thanks Big Brother. Where would we be without you?