4000 amp manufacturing facility

Status
Not open for further replies.

grubin

Member
Location
Longmont, Co.
What is the best service entrance design for a 4000 amp, 480 volt, 3 ph load for a plant that has about 500 amps of conventional building load, 500 amps of mechanical load, and 2000 amps of process equipment loads through motor control centers? Run through one main OCP, divide into three service disconnects, or ask the utility to supply transformers for two separate services?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Not sure what is generally done but my preference would have the utility bring in 2 services-- of course then you will have 2 electric bills to pay instead of one.
 

Haji

Banned
Location
India
Not sure what is generally done but my preference would have the utility bring in 2 services-- of course then you will have 2 electric bills to pay instead of one.

If you want a secure supply, run a parallel service line. In this way, service may be maintained through the other line, if one line is damaged. I do not know whether the POCO would permit it.
 
What is the best service entrance design for a 4000 amp, 480 volt, 3 ph load for a plant that has about 500 amps of conventional building load, 500 amps of mechanical load, and 2000 amps of process equipment loads through motor control centers? Run through one main OCP, divide into three service disconnects, or ask the utility to supply transformers for two separate services?

One 2.5MVA secondary unti substation with 13.8kVA primary metering section, Owned by the property owner will get the best utility rate for the owner. 600V Class secondary switchgear with multiple brekaers to distribute the voltage to stepdown transformers for 208/120V and to 480V MCC's.
 

steve66

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Engineer
One 2.5MVA secondary unti substation with 13.8kVA primary metering section, Owned by the property owner will get the best utility rate for the owner. 600V Class secondary switchgear with multiple brekaers to distribute the voltage to stepdown transformers for 208/120V and to 480V MCC's.

I'm thinking the same thing. If they use enough KWH's per year, they will get a much better rate by having the utility meter the power at the higher voltage, and have the plant provide and maintain the transformer. The primary voltage would be whatever the utility has in that area. Probably either 13.8 KV, or 4.2 KV.

If they meter at the lower 480V, and they get hit with demand charges for exceeding some demand limit, the excess use charges can be huge. Primary metering can eliminate that.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Another vote for: purchasing 'primary' power and your own step down equipment (in our area the primary voltage will usually be up to 34.5kV).

I would also consider multiple 480V distribution centers to allow for equipment outages that do not affect the entire facility.
 

Haji

Banned
Location
India
I'm thinking the same thing. If they use enough KWH's per year, they will get a much better rate by having the utility meter the power at the higher voltage, and have the plant provide and maintain the transformer. The primary voltage would be whatever the utility has in that area. Probably either 13.8 KV, or 4.2 KV.

If they meter at the lower 480V, and they get hit with demand charges for exceeding some demand limit, the excess use charges can be huge. Primary metering can eliminate that.

Interesting. May be the real beneficiary is the POCO, if the user avails supply at MV, because the energy loss associated with low current at MV supply would be lower for them. The user has to incur capital cost of procuring transformers and maintenance charges for the same. Perhaps better power quality at MV supply. The user may work out the break even point in cost of obtaining MV supply vs LV supply. In India, there are court cases for converting existing facility supply voltage at 11 Kv to 415V ( no demand charges; only KWH charges at 415V supply) because some users think such supply is more expensive here.
 

steve66

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Engineer
One 2.5MVA secondary unti substation with 13.8kVA primary metering section, Owned by the property owner will get the best utility rate for the owner. 600V Class secondary switchgear with multiple brekaers to distribute the voltage to stepdown transformers for 208/120V and to 480V MCC's.
<br><br>I'm thinking the same thing.  If they use enough KWH's per year, they will get a much better rate by having the utility meter the power at the higher voltage, and have the plant provide and maintain the transformer.  The primary voltage would be whatever the utility has in that area.  Probably either 13.8 KV, or 4.2 KV.<br><br>If they meter at the lower 480V, and they get hit with demand charges for exceeding some demand limit, the excess use charges can be huge.  Primary metering can eliminate that.
 

grubin

Member
Location
Longmont, Co.
One 2.5MVA secondary unti substation with 13.8kVA primary metering section, Owned by the property owner will get the best utility rate for the owner. 600V Class secondary switchgear with multiple brekaers to distribute the voltage to stepdown transformers for 208/120V and to 480V MCC's.


This makes sense if they have enough money to own primary equipment. If not, do you know the maximum transformer size that Excel Energy of Colorado, or most other utilities, will set for 480 volt secondary?
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
This makes sense if they have enough money to own primary equipment. If not, do you know the maximum transformer size that Excel Energy of Colorado, or most other utilities, will set for 480 volt secondary?
I don't think anyone has enough money to own primary equipment. Most people include the cost of the primary gear into the capital costs of the facility, and use the anticipated lower annual utility costs as part of payback calculations. This exercise is normal for utility account reps.

Xcel Energy's "Blue Book' lists 2500kVA as the largest 480Y/277V transformer.
http://www.xcelenergy.com/staticfil...-Energy-Standard-For-Installation-and-Use.pdf
 

grubin

Member
Location
Longmont, Co.
Grubin...

Does your contract with the utility have an ownership clause for the stepdown xmrs?

Regards, Phil Corso

I don't know the answer to that, Phil. Excel Energy does have primary power ownership arrangements wherein the Owner possesses and maintains the transformer and secondary lateral, etc. with primarty metering.
 

Haji

Banned
Location
India
Excel Energy does have primary power ownership arrangements wherein the Owner possesses and maintains the transformer and secondary lateral, etc. with primarty metering.
Usually plant distribution is at 13.8 kV. But the total load here is 4000A only. So the utility may be requested to provide two transformers in the user substation with supply metered at 480/277V, unless the facility is situated over a very wide area in which case distribution at 13.8 kV and terminating at 480/277V or 208/120V load centers is beneficial.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Usually plant distribution is at 13.8 kV.
Your experience, concerning US installations is limited.

In my area we have tremendously more 12,470V than we do 13,800V. Medium voltage motors are usually 4160V or 7200V.
In fact I think 13.2kV and 14.4kV are more common than 13.8kV.
 
Your experience, concerning US installations is limited.

In my area we have tremendously more 12,470V than we do 13,800V. Medium voltage motors are usually 4160V or 7200V.
In fact I think 13.2kV and 14.4kV are more common than 13.8kV.

In my area/industry 13.8kV is pretty much the standard for large and new plant distribution voltage - and is the current ANSI standard for 3 wire distribution voltage.

http://static.schneider-electric.us/assets/consultingengineer/appguidedocs/section4_0307.pdf
 

hurk27

Senior Member
What is the best service entrance design for a 4000 amp, 480 volt, 3 ph load for a plant that has about 500 amps of conventional building load, 500 amps of mechanical load, and 2000 amps of process equipment loads through motor control centers? Run through one main OCP, divide into three service disconnects, or ask the utility to supply transformers for two separate services?

Looks like you have some home work to do, and not knowing the type of industry, demand and future growth requirements most of the responses you might get here will all be speculative at most, but I do agree with others that having a primary metered service can be beneficial as if there will be future growth you can have the POCO size their primary lines and metering for this allot easier then if they metered after the utility own transforming and they are usually more agreeable to this then if you try to get them to oversize the service if it is metered after the transformer, this is because they would be absorbing the losses of the transformer which can be significant when transformers are not loaded close to their rating.

Another benefit of primary metered service is the customer can have better control over voltage drops as it can be hard to get a POCO to do anything about VD problems after the fact.

But this brings up another question that will need to be asked, how much actual load will be required for each transformer, as with a primary metered system you will want your transformers sized close to the actual loads rather then sizing them larger for future growth as this puts the transformer losses on the customers bill not the utility's, also keep in mind that if the operation of the plant is not 16 or 24 hours a day the customer can expect to be metered for the transformer loss at the times the plant if not running at full capacity, while were not talking a big amount but it can add up over a years time, this all should be figured in when comparing which way to go, there are some great transformer people on here who might be able to give a better idea of what your looking at then I can, but like I said if you size your transformers for the load demand you are expecting now, then future transformers can be added for new loads as the plants expands if it ever does since you already have the future primary line sizing done.

With the sizing of the 4k amps you stated above lets say 1ka for 280/120 loads, and 3ka for the 480/277 volt loads if the primary is a 13.8kv then your looking at about around 110 amps on the primary, if we want to build in futures then lets say we shoot for a 150 amp primary which will give you a capacity of 3.6MW available for future growth or even a 125 amp primary will give you just under 3MW, with you existing loads stated in your post equaling to 94 amps on a 13.8kv primary which is about 1.3MWs so even a 125 amp primary will give you the room to double your loads at a later time so at that time you can add transformers for these future loads this way you keep your transformers sized more closely with their loads.

The idea is to not cause you customer to pay to magnetize a lightly loaded transformer, if the transformer is on the utility's side of the meter then the utility will have to absorb these cost which they will in one way or another pass them back down to the customer in higher utility cost per kwh + peek demand and PF losses if so applies.
 
Last edited:

hurk27

Senior Member
The down side of primary metered services is as others mentioned is the cost of transformers, line and transformer losses (that can be kept at a minimum with proper engineering) and finding qualified personal to install, maintain and repair the MV equipment, which many contractor shops are not set up to do.

Like I said much will depend upon the type of industry, if future growth and expansion is expected, and how many hours in a day the load demand will be required, which all can be used to determine which way to go.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top