Jumping Through Hoops

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chris1971

chris1971

Senior Member
Location
Usa
The other day I met with a potential customer about a whole house standby generator system
they are interested in having installed. The first obstacle location: 4' setback from property line and not allowed in front of home. These homes are only seperated by about 6'. Second
obstacle: must present an exact location along with detailed pictures and specs to the city
historical preservation board because the property is located in a historical district. Third
obstacle is noise: not sure if it will comply with the cities noise compliance ordinances? Maybe
I'll sell them a generator sub panel and inlet for a portable generator. A lot of hoops to jump
through.:slaphead:
 
H

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Depending on the length of backup time and load, they may be better off with an inverter and battery system. They make some of the generators that are vertical, about the same size as an air conditioner unit, you may be able to put it next to it if they have air. I do not know what style of building it is, but if its an old historical building, it may have a flat roof that may support a generator. Just a few possibilities.
 
chris1971

chris1971

Senior Member
Location
Usa
It's a single family home without a flat roof. Based on my initial assessment, I don't see any other feasible options other than a portable generator to operate the basics.
 
goldstar

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Jumping through hoops ? Welcome to the world of generator installations. Going through a similar situation right now. In this particular township power was out for over a week after Hurricane Sandy. Everybody now wants a generator - nobody wants to pay the $$. All the homes are fairly close together, setbacks vary. Township will not allow generators to be placed in front of the house even though electric service drops and gas meters are located there. I guess they're concerned about appearances. Submission materials include the following :
  • Sealed electrical permit (showing the total cost of the work including the cost of the generator)
  • Sealed plumbing permit (gas piping)
  • Fire protection permit (in some towns)
  • Building permit (if you're pouring a concrete pad)
  • Manilla job jacket and construction permit application
  • Single line wiring diagram
  • Electrical load calculation
  • Gas consumption estimate
  • Approval from the gas company to install generator based on gas estimate
  • Spec sheets on generator and xfer switch
  • Site plan showing location of generator within set-back

All this before you order the generator and make DOLLAR ONE. That's why you have to get a deposit before you do any work. Once you get the approval from the township have your customer go down, pick up the permits and pay the $500 vig to the town (permit fees are based on dollar value of the work). Now, you bust your tail and do all the work only to have an EI tell you (1) that the unit has to be 5' from the house (even though the manufacturer's specs say it can be 18" if there's no combustible material nearby, (2) You need a ground rod and bonding jumper (even though the unit is not a separately derived system), (3) He will not accept the manufacturer's warning labels (even though they are printed in accordance with NEC 702.7(B).

I tell you it's a pant load of fun !!!................Especially in the winter.:rant:
 
H

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
I had one guy who was an engineer from Germany want his generator put in the crawl space of his house! He did not want the city to know he had one. He ran an illegal ham repeater station out of his house.
 
K8MHZ

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
hillbilly1 said:
I had one guy who was an engineer from Germany want his generator put in the crawl space of his house! He did not want the city to know he had one. He ran an illegal ham repeater station out of his house.
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What's an illegal ham repeater station? I mean, particularly, in this case. It would be a heck of a lot easier to locate a transmitter than a generator and if it was on a ham radio frequency that would be done in hours once someone noticed the lack of legal identification.

Are you sure he didn't have an illegal CB, or some other band repeater?
 
renosteinke

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Sure, it can be aggrivating to have to 'jump through hoops,' but ....

Most of the 'hoops' described are things you ought to be doing anyway. Things like load calcs and chatting with the gas company. (For the gas, you're going to get someone with a license, right??? :) )

Setbacks and other code / CC&R restrictions are also pretty much a given.

Are we - and, by extension, the NEC - over-engineering this issue? MUST we put in a "Cadillac" system?

I had a taste of a power outage this winter, and I can get by with a lot less than a 'full house' generator! Just let me run an extension cord out the window to a little portable, and I have all I need for the furnace blower and a wobble-light. Refrigerated food? Come on, now - it's WINTER!
 
mtfallsmikey

mtfallsmikey

Senior Member
Went through similar crap when I was installing central AC, heat pumps, condensing gas furnaces in historic districts, I charged regular labor rates for the complete prep/presentation.
 
hbiss

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
As generators are becoming more and more in demand the codes were updated usually to protect neighbors and the neighborhood. Once that happens you know you are going to jump through hoops. We have communities here that require a sound level test by a certified engineer after the installation. One also allows nothing for fuel other than natural gas. I know of one customer that was given a quote of $20,000 to upgrade their gas service. That makes me wonder how the gas company feels about the ROI of having to upgrade their facilities to serve the demand of a community full of generators when the demand will only be needed for a few hours a year. Where's the money in that? I think at some point generators will become so expensive that people will start thinking about alternatives. People today have become spoiled and don't know how to deal with the lack of commercial power. They think it's a right.


-Hal
 
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J

jes25

Senior Member
Location
Midwest
hbiss said:
People today have become spoiled and don't know how to deal with the lack of commercial power. They think it's a right. l
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That's OK with me! Generators are great money makers.

Seriously though, about half of the people I sell to need a generator because of health concerns / issues. Other reasons include not wanting frozen pipes or flooded basements. Fairly legit reasons I think
 
chris1971

chris1971

Senior Member
Location
Usa
jes25 said:
That's OK with me! Generators are great money makers.

Seriously though, about half of the people I sell to need a generator because of health concerns / issues. Other reasons include not wanting frozen pipes or flooded basements. Fairly legit reasons I think
Click to expand...

I agree. The last one I sold and installed was for the guys wife who has cancer. He said he wants to have power no matter what. I've also sold and installed generators to people I would consider to be a bit on the paranoid side. I really don't care who wants one, if they have the money we'll sell it and install it for them.:D
 
J

jes25

Senior Member
Location
Midwest
chris1971 said:
I've also sold and installed generators to people I would consider to be a bit on the paranoid side. I really don't care who wants one, if they have the money we'll sell it and install it for them.:D
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, I forgot about the dooms-dayers. I always wonder why they think the power may be out for a long time, but not the nat gas will be good to go.
 
Fulthrotl

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Location
HB, CA (19 Hrs. 22 Min. from Winged Horses)
Occupation
E
jes25 said:
Oh yeah, I forgot about the dooms-dayers. I always wonder why they think the power may be out for a long time, but not the nat gas will be good to go.
Click to expand...

it's an ego thing, at least in the expensive areas around here.... they
want something that can run their whole house without them being
inconvenienced.

i explain that it's going to be an expensive undertaking, doing whole
house on the gold coast... i explain that ALL of my time will be billed
at my normal hourly rate, and it can be above $5k in hoop jumping
fees, and at the end of it, they may not be allowed to proceed by the AHJ.

what kills the project, is when i explain to them that being your
own utility is an expensive proposition... and having whole house power
running 24/7 to provide minimal loads at night will freak most
checking accounts out.

very wealthy fellow, when i explained that for the size of his house,
idling a genset big enough to air condition 7,000 sq ft in the summer
would be about $18 per HOUR, just to IDLE.....

or, $500+ a day.

$15,000 for a month, when armageddon hits.... he said, and i quote:
"screw that, for 15k i can charter a jet to vail, and stay at my vacation house".

no sale.

when they find out they can put a portable genset connection on
the panel, and use a portable generator..... then you get a
few hundred bucks, and put on a plug and interlock.... and sit it on
the back lawn, and a 3kw honda genset will keep then rocking....
and it's electric start and quiet.....
 
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