Electrolysis

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GG

Senior Member
Location
Ft.Worth, T.X.
A plumber wants me to bond the hot water piping back to the service panel. The system already has a cold water ground. He is telling the owner that without this hot water ground that both his cold and hot water lines will continue burst. The owners house is 20 years old and in the last 2 months he has had 2 lines burst under his slab. One on the cold and one on the hot water.

He is being told this is due to electrolysis and that without this hot water ground that his plumbing pipes will continue to burst. I thought there was a dielectric union installed on water heaters that prevented eloctolysis? Any useful ideas? I don't see how me adding a hot water ground is going to solve anything ?

This is also being asked of a master plumber and he has many years in the trade.
 

__dan

Senior Member
A plumber wants me to bond the hot water piping back to the service panel. The system already has a cold water ground. He is telling the owner that without this hot water ground that both his cold and hot water lines will continue burst. The owners house is 20 years old and in the last 2 months he has had 2 lines burst under his slab. One on the cold and one on the hot water.

He is being told this is due to electrolysis and that without this hot water ground that his plumbing pipes will continue to burst. I thought there was a dielectric union installed on water heaters that prevented eloctolysis? Any useful ideas? I don't see how me adding a hot water ground is going to solve anything ?

This is also being asked of a master plumber and he has many years in the trade.

At the shower diverter valves and some all metal faucetts, it is likely if you looked at them you would see the hot and cold copper piping soldered into the bronze casting (diverters) or tapped to a common metal housing. Point is, the cold and hot copper piping may already be bonded together at the point of use bronze body mixing valve. Washer diverter also comes to mind.

There is some corrosive action between copper piping and direct concrete or under concrete burial. It has a bad rep from failures. This could be accelerated by field conditions, something in the concrete mix, something in the soil, with the presence of water or moisture. Additional bonding cannot be assumed to cure the problem that is occurring, although I think I would do it quickly if asked to by the owner, with some caveat that the effect may not be stopped by bonding. The process of elimination, adverse soil or concrete and water conditions may remain after the bonding has been addressed.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp...17&gs_id=1u&xhr=t&q=copper+concrete+corrosion

http://www.toolbase.org/pdf/casestudies/copper_failure.pdf
 

hurk27

Senior Member
I would be checking for a voltage from the system grounding to remote Earth, a common misconception is bonding everything to the system grounding is going to fix all problems with electrolysis, but if there is a voltage to earth from this grounding system then it fixes nothing, this voltage can be caused by a bad neutral conductor between the main service disconnect and the transformer or a bad MGN (primary neutral) on the primary side of the transformer, it it this reason that causes problems with pipes in contact with Earth.

Leaks in underground piping is one of the first signs of a voltage to Earth on the system grounding, go to the meter box with a DVM and a piece of wire, stick a short rod or even a screw drive in the Earth and measure the voltage between the case of the meter and Earth, if it is above 10 volts call the utility and explain they have a neutral problem either after the transformer or before (primary side) if they check for current on the neutral to the transformer on the primary side and it is very low or none at all, then the transformer is returning all the current through this houses grounding system including the pipes.

If this lasted 20 years with no problems without a ground, it sure wasn't a lack of grounding that caused it to just show up in the last 2 or 3 months.
 

VOICECOILS

Member
Location
california
DUDE, THAT PLUMBER IS TRIPPIN'

DUDE, THAT PLUMBER IS TRIPPIN'

Copper pipe literally gets crushed by the concrete, as it cures it expands enough to crush fittings and cause leaks. And since concrete cures all the time, always with crystalization, its more likely to be a long term problem of the future. This is why no one does this anymore, and prevention work includes repiping through attics and exterior.

This whole electrolysis thing is when aluminum MC cable is in contact with copper plumbing pipes. The copper and aluminum cause a chemical reaction and overtime both metals will corrode. Black tape is the solution on either surface. This typiclly happens in commercial jobs where MC cable is used in abundance amongst copper tubing like bathrooms and kitchens in restaurants.

This is also true with homes wired with aluminum conductors for the branch circuits. Sometimes wired with both aluminum and copper wiring and junctioned together. These weak joints and corrosive bonds caused alot of damage, which is why they are no longer used or acceptible for smaller branch circuits.

In california, it is required to ground to the cold water bond as a secondary and a 8' long electrodeas primary, in some parts of the city two ground rods are required spaced 6' apart.
The Cold and hot water lines are usally already bonded via hot water heater and faucet manifolds, braces and fittings. You can always use a meter to check if you have voltage to growd to a known hot water pipe
 

ghostbuster

Senior Member
In one condo job we investigated there was over 30 amps of current flow on the copper waterpiping system.The water coming out had a bluish green tinge to it and smelled like rotten eggs.Copper water pipes were bursting in between the wallspaces of these condo units with lots of water to clean up and water damage-Good Luck
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Electrolysis is a result of DC current. Current could be from dissimilar materials and an electrolyte between them. If you have this condition you have a battery - a source for DC current.

With AC current any degrading of metal in one cycle is reversed in the next cycle. DC current the degrading is continuous in one direction.

If this has been replaced more than once why didn't they use either a coated pipe, non metallic pipe, or something other than bare copper?
 

GG

Senior Member
Location
Ft.Worth, T.X.
Thanks for the replies. The pipes are under the slab in a trench that was filled with sand. The entire pipe was never replaced but only the sections that developed leaks. I talked to the plumber and he wanted me to remove the cold water ground. I told him I'm not going to. Next he said to drive a ground rod. I'm going to since the service does not have one, but I think we all know this wont change anything.

I asked him if the water heater had dielectric unions and he started to get flustered on the phone and said no they don't. I didn't press him on their use as I don't know much about plumbing, but a little about the need for a union. He basically said the water heater in question doesn't need them.

I will test for current flowing to ground as I have to go install the ground rod tomorrow.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Thanks for the replies. The pipes are under the slab in a trench that was filled with sand. The entire pipe was never replaced but only the sections that developed leaks. I talked to the plumber and he wanted me to remove the cold water ground. I told him I'm not going to. Next he said to drive a ground rod. I'm going to since the service does not have one, but I think we all know this wont change anything.

I asked him if the water heater had dielectric unions and he started to get flustered on the phone and said no they don't. I didn't press him on their use as I don't know much about plumbing, but a little about the need for a union. He basically said the water heater in question doesn't need them.

I will test for current flowing to ground as I have to go install the ground rod tomorrow.

I think the main reason for dielectric unions is the prevent galvanic action from disimilar metals in contact with one another at the tank to piping connection. Otherwise if metallic pipe, the pipe is grounded and if the unit is electric the tank is connected to the EGC anyway.

Some water heaters come supplied with fittings (usually a nipple made from metal alloys that will not disagree with the tank or common piping metals) that do not require use of dielectric unions. If you have to thread your premises piping directly into the tank you probably need a dielectric union, especially if water piping is copper and the tank is steel.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
In one condo job we investigated there was over 30 amps of current flow on the copper waterpiping system.The water coming out had a bluish green tinge to it and smelled like rotten eggs.Copper water pipes were bursting in between the wallspaces of these condo units with lots of water to clean up and water damage-Good Luck

I have pex plumbing (its plastic, so no current flow there)in the house I bought last year, the fittings are copper, and I have pinhole leaks that come up on occasion. I also have a blue tint were it pools on the pipe. I researched this, and found out that my well water has a high PH level. This eats up the copper and causes it to fail. To prevent this I would have to add an acid injection system at the cost of several thousand dollars. I think a lot of copper leaks are blamed on current on the piping, but it's actually the water.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I have pex plumbing (its plastic, so no current flow there)in the house I bought last year, the fittings are copper, and I have pinhole leaks that come up on occasion. I also have a blue tint were it pools on the pipe. I researched this, and found out that my well water has a high PH level. This eats up the copper and causes it to fail. To prevent this I would have to add an acid injection system at the cost of several thousand dollars. I think a lot of copper leaks are blamed on current on the piping, but it's actually the water.

So do you drink this high alkaline water or do you treat your drinking water with something that will neutralize or remove whatever is causing the high PH?

If it will eat through a copper fitting what does it do to your digestive tract? Maybe you never need to take antacids though:)
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
So do you drink this high alkaline water or do you treat your drinking water with something that will neutralize or remove whatever is causing the high PH?

If it will eat through a copper fitting what does it do to your digestive tract? Maybe you never need to take antacids though:)

We don't drink it, when you have grown up drinking mountain spring water, all other water tastes bad!:D
Another thing that bothers me about the water around here is mercury was used in gold processing, and it is still in the soil. I now live within a 1/2 mile of three different gold mines that were operational during the great gold rush in Georgia.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
We don't drink it, when you have grown up drinking mountain spring water, all other water tastes bad!:D
Another thing that bothers me about the water around here is mercury was used in gold processing, and it is still in the soil. I now live within a 1/2 mile of three different gold mines that were operational during the great gold rush in Georgia.

So you have a big tanker that you periodically have to take to the mountains to get drinking water?

Or does it get stale if you don't drink it right away?:)
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
So you have a big tanker that you periodically have to take to the mountains to get drinking water?

Or does it get stale if you don't drink it right away?:)

I actually have two 350 gallon tanks at my other house that I store it in.:D biggest problem is keeping the algae down in the summer. When my dad originally bought the property, there was a spring house 40' from the original house. The previous owners kept their food refrigerated that way. Years ago there was two little old ladies that would stop by and talk about having dances in the old house that came with the property. There was a log cabin and moonshine still back in the 1900's at the far end of the property.
 

GG

Senior Member
Location
Ft.Worth, T.X.
I drove the ground rod today and did not measure and voltage between the service and the ground rod before I connected it. Also there was no current on the neutral when I shut the main off. I have pictures of the water heater and there are not any dielectric unions installed and it looks like copper connected straight to galvanized pipe.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I drove the ground rod today and did not measure and voltage between the service and the ground rod before I connected it. Also there was no current on the neutral when I shut the main off. I have pictures of the water heater and there are not any dielectric unions installed and it looks like copper connected straight to galvanized pipe.

Did you check for DC voltage on water piping to earth? If you effectively have a "battery" with the pipe being one electrode you will have a DC voltage from this "battery".

Copper connected the galvanized pipe will primarily effect that particular connection and not the underground piping.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Electrolysis was a bad term for what I was trying to say, but AC voltage between the grounding system and Earth and or water pipes can cause damage as in pitting to copper pipes the same way it does to our copper wires when the insulation is compromised, I don't know how many DB feeds to trailers I have had to repair from damaged insulation on the feeders the copper would be all but dissolved away.

I posted a few years ago about an apartment complex where people were receiving shock's in the basement apartments when they were in the shower standing on tile over concrete and touch the faucet handles, but this was an after effect because this one building had started having problems with the underground water supply lines leaking all copper, I was told it all started about a year before we were called (when the shocks started to happen) the first few times they had plumbers repair the copper main to the building it would last a few months and again they would have leaks, this complex was over 30 years old and never had a problem up till then, the shocks started happening when the plumber replaced all the piping up to the building with plastic.

On the complex property is 12 buildings each fed with there own separate water main, and electric supply from the utility, each building had a pad mounted transformer which was fed from one phase out at the street, the MV cable the utility used was a exposed concentric neutral, the one to this building had a bad C crimp connection that bonded the concentric to the MGN out at the pole, after testing at several points on the grounding system to Earth and the pad mounted transformer to Earth which all had the same voltage level of around 56 volts, we knew we had a bad return path on the concentric neutral, the utility line men can out and dug up the old MV feed and found most of the concentric neutral had dissolved also copper, their ground rod in the transformer pad was also gone and was just laying over with the bond conductor still hanging on to it, they replaced the MV feed with a new one that had a jacket over the concentric neutral, we installed new rods at the building as well as a new rod was installed at the transformer, all was fine for about 4 months then we get another call that they were getting complaints again of shocks, only this time they said the were not as severe, I went back out there and recorded a voltage of about 34 volts at the transformer pad, I called the utility engineer (friend of mine) and told him what these line men did when they connected the new concentric neutral, they had left the old bad C crimp and had just left a tail to which they butt spliced the new MV cables concentric neutral to, I guess they had moved the old C crimp enough that it made a connection for a little while but it went bad again which again put all the return current from the transformer back on the ground rods and since they were still fairly new they didn't have the voltage drop of the older ones that had almost all dissolved away, if they had and since the water pipe had been replaced with plastic, the voltage of the grounding system could had risen to the 7200 volts of the primary after they made a new connection to the MGN (this time they used two C crimps for it) we never got another call.

The first time I was there, the complex maintenance man showed me a few pieces of the old copper pipe that the plumbers had replaced and one piece had a large corroded out hole, it was I think a 1 1/2" copper pipe and beside the large hole the pipe had all kinds of smaller pin holes and pits, then he showed me a piece that was a new piece the plumber had installed to repair it before, and even this newer pipe had pin holes and pits just like the older pipe.

All the damage was on the outside of the pipes well till it went through the wall of the pipe, he even said they dug up some of the pipes at the other buildings to make sure they didn't have any problems at these buildings and said those pipes were like brand new other then discoloration but no pitting at all, only this building was affected.

Also when the plumber dug up the old street main tap the old pipe had a short piece of plastic pipe from the tap to where it connected to the pipe that went to the building so there was no continuity to the city main and is probably why there was a voltage potential difference that cause the damage, if it had been connected the return current from the transformer would probably not had been able to create enough difference of potential to cause this much damage and the bad primary neutral could have gone un-noticed for years.

This is why I always check for the voltage to Earth potential on the system grounding as you can have current on the grounding system but not have a differance of potential to Earth or very little, because the grounding can be just parallel neutral current and might cause 2 or 3 volts differance but when you see 10 volts or higher you have other problems that like in this case could be very dangerous.

It was very lucky no one was hurt or killed as the potential was there.
 
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