GFCI for Washing machine

[jumper]

There is no reason at all a properly working appliance cannot be on a GFCI.

That pretty much sums it up nicely.:thumbsup:

 

[busman]

I only use Cooper or P&S GFCI's (and all other devices for that matter) and have never had an issue with motors (including clothes washers, sump pumps and all sorts of woodworking machines).

Mark

 

[kwired]

here in Los Angeles which is a small little city in California yes GFCI's are now required for laundry areas. If there is water in the vacinity they are required. They(inspectors) are not concerned about what is plugged into them. And I agree the better brang Gfci's tend to hold up well with washing equiptment. We do tons of old apartments with old washer dryers , not too many problems

I can't speak for your local codes, but NEC has gone with the GFCI required within 6 feet of a sink, and not with if there is any water involved period.

Are you required to GFCI things like dishwashers, refrigerators with water/ice, water heaters, circulating pumps for any use, humidifiers, dehumidifiers, and possibly many other items?

I think the main intent of NEC outside of kitchens, baths, outdoors, basements, garages and any other specific locations where GFCI may be required everywhere is the fact that portable appliances in close proximity to a sink could end up in the sink while plugged in. Sure the washer isn't likely to end up in the sink but if the receptacle is within 6 feet (I will not defend the distance, but there had to be a distance) then it is possible something else could be plugged in to the receptacle.

GFCI is not required just because the washer uses water.

 

[bobbymari]

I can't speak for your local codes, but NEC has gone with the GFCI required within 6 feet of a sink, and not with if there is any water involved period.

Are you required to GFCI things like dishwashers, refrigerators with water/ice, water heaters, circulating pumps for any use, humidifiers, dehumidifiers, and possibly many other items?

I think the main intent of NEC outside of kitchens, baths, outdoors, basements, garages and any other specific locations where GFCI may be required everywhere is the fact that portable appliances in close proximity to a sink could end up in the sink while plugged in. Sure the washer isn't likely to end up in the sink but if the receptacle is within 6 feet (I will not defend the distance, but there had to be a distance) then it is possible something else could be plugged in to the receptacle.

GFCI is not required just because the washer uses water.

as for other places you mentioned no, washers without a sink where receptacle is readily accesable yes and it is just because washer uses water. it was explained to me by more than one inspector like this. if washer for any reason malfunctions or is left full of water and receptacle is accesable, then it has now become a sink full of water with an accesable recept right next to it and I personally am fine with that assesment.

 

[cowboyjwc]

GFCI's are not required in california for laundy circuit for the exact reason of the inductance kick back that tends to trip out GFCI's. Motors tend to cause GFCI's to trip out. The design of the washer and dryer and the design of the GFCI cant seem to coexist.

May be a local thing, but it's not a state thing. You''re required to have a GFCI if it's in the garage or within 6' of a laundry sink. If it's just in a laundry closet you don't need GFCI and many jurisdictions don't require AFCI either.

 

[GoldDigger]

If it's just in a laundry closet you don't need GFCI and many jurisdictions don't require AFCI either.

Unless it is a laundry closet in a bedroom or bathroom? That question has been raised in another thread.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Unless it is a laundry closet in a bedroom or bathroom? That question has been raised in another thread.

You could play that game, and I would probably agree. Don't see many laundry's in the bathroom or bedroom though.

 

[S'mise]

"Unless it is a laundry closet in a bedroom or bathroom?" Why, are there GFCI requirements for bedrooms now?

Back to the washer solinoid; Would a MOV across the solinoid(s) keep the GFCI from tripping?

 

[GoldDigger]

Why, are there GFCI requirements for bedrooms now?

... and many jurisdictions don't require AFCI either.

AFCI

 

[S'mise]

One GFCI exception (in my house) is our sump pump which is in a locked closet. I don't want a flooded basemet.
Maybe I should finish the inside of the closet to make it code? :roll:

 

[hurk27]

"Unless it is a laundry closet in a bedroom or bathroom?" Why, are there GFCI requirements for bedrooms now?

Back to the washer solenoid; Would a MOV across the solenoid(s) keep the GFCI from tripping?

Funny you should ask, and the answer is no.

Believe it or not, putting a MOV across the contacts on the timer that controls the solenoid drains the surge off much slower and doesn't cause the imbalance that the surge causes, I have played with a few caps that results in the same effect or better.

To understand the reason why inductive kick back causes cheap GFCI's to trip goes back to the time when GFCI's were first coming out, even as late as the mid 1980's many manufactures didn't put much filtering to filter this spike out as well as the small time delay that today the chip in a GFCI looks at the imbalance before taking action, this time delay was the most effective way to stop most inductive trips as the speed of the spike was very short duration and had a fast rise time and decay, this put a high frequency ring into the load side of the GFCI that since it would be out of sync with the 60hz it would cause a current to develop in the sensing coil (current transformer) of the detection circuit that would cause the electronics to trip the GFCI, this high frequency pulse caused by the inductive kick back is what trips the cheaper (China made) or older GFCI's but this pulse last a very short period in time, and the National Semiconductor LM1851 chip found in most newer and better made GFCI's including breakers has the gated delay set to the max that UL specs allow which I think is 25ms which is about a half of a cycle at 60hz but is effective for most type of inductive kick backs.

It is hard to design a LC circuit to filter out this high frequency pulse because the LC circuit would have to be design where it doesnt place the dump current on the load side of the GFCI, it's not the high voltage spike that one might think is the problem and is why the MOV has little effect on the problem, it is the high frequency of the spike that is the problem, and is the same reason why many of the newer florescent lights that use 25hz to help light the lamp can cause problem if the GFCI manufacture doesn't include any filtering for these higher frequency loads.

A near by lightning strike which is also a high frequency event can also trip GFCI's even if it doesn't damage the GFCI, I have come home a couple of times after a storm has gone through to find that most of my GFCI's are tripped, but the reset and test just fine only to find out later that lightning had struck a tree a couple doors down.

Attached is a good paper on GFCI's the goes into a little about the problem with HF, but if you click on the links to the LM 1851 chip you can read a little about the gated delay in the specs.

 

[kwired]

as for other places you mentioned no, washers without a sink where receptacle is readily accesable yes and it is just because washer uses water. it was explained to me by more than one inspector like this. if washer for any reason malfunctions or is left full of water and receptacle is accesable, then it has now become a sink full of water with an accesable recept right next to it and I personally am fine with that assesment.

Why only the washer, many other items could be viewed the same way? Did they do any study and find there were significant number of electrocutions involving washers that were not in unfinished basements, garages or other normally GFCI required areas? My guess is the risk is not much different than it is for any other appliance that does not use water.

Still don't know why some places have the desire to change what is in the NEC. What kind of research do they put into such changes vs. the changes just being someones opinion of what they think is right? NEC has so many people behind its development, including the input of the general public as compared to these small jurisdictions that suddenly know it all. Sure there are problems in the NEC at times, but every three years there is an opportunity to fix them.

 

[bobbymari]

Why only the washer, many other items could be viewed the same way? Did they do any study and find there were significant number of electrocutions involving washers that were not in unfinished basements, garages or other normally GFCI required areas? My guess is the risk is not much different than it is for any other appliance that does not use water.

Still don't know why some places have the desire to change what is in the NEC. What kind of research do they put into such changes vs. the changes just being someones opinion of what they think is right? NEC has so many people behind its development, including the input of the general public as compared to these small jurisdictions that suddenly know it all. Sure there are problems in the NEC at times, but every three years there is an opportunity to fix them.

While I hear what you are saying, at the same time as stated before I am okay with the explanation I was givin. I do agree that a washer with an accesable receptacle has the danger potential. Much more so than others you mentioned. Dishwasher, more times than not nonaccesable recept,fridge with ice maker non accesable recept, water heater mostly in a waterheater closet or direct wired if 240v. This is just one we may agree to disagree cause I for one have seen the washer recept used as a convenience recept on many occasions. Shoot Im just as guilty plugging my chargers in on a job

 

[kwired]

While I hear what you are saying, at the same time as stated before I am okay with the explanation I was givin. I do agree that a washer with an accesable receptacle has the danger potential. Much more so than others you mentioned. Dishwasher, more times than not nonaccesable recept,fridge with ice maker non accesable recept, water heater mostly in a waterheater closet or direct wired if 240v. This is just one we may agree to disagree cause I for one have seen the washer recept used as a convenience recept on many occasions. Shoot Im just as guilty plugging my chargers in on a job

But that is a different than what you said before. You said washer was required to have GFCI because it was effectively a sink, nothing about whether or not the receptacle was accessible for use by other items.

I have seen washer recep used as convenience recep for other items many times myself. But (according to NEC) GFCI protection is still only required in unfinshed basements, garages, within 6 feet of sinks, maybe a few other limited instances. NEC does not view the washer itself as a sink. People have a tendency to think just because water is involved in any way a GFCI is necessary. Not always true.

2011 NEC BTW now requires all GFCI's to be readily accessible.

 

[bobbymari]

yes I believe I did say accesible in earlier post thats whats makes the difference around here . If its behind the washer no problem . Above and accesible gfci needed, and we are not in disagreement about what NEC states , this was more to clarify earlier mention of not being required in California, which isnt so

 

[bobbymari]

see post 20

 

[bobbymari]

But that is a different than what you said before. You said washer was required to have GFCI because it was effectively a sink, nothing about whether or not the receptacle was accessible for use by other items.

I have seen washer recep used as convenience recep for other items many times myself. But (according to NEC) GFCI protection is still only required in unfinshed basements, garages, within 6 feet of sinks, maybe a few other limited instances. NEC does not view the washer itself as a sink. People have a tendency to think just because water is involved in any way a GFCI is necessary. Not always true.

2011 NEC BTW now requires all GFCI's to be readily accessible.

also now that gfci's are required to be accesible , kind of goes hand in hand with behind the washer no gfci, above and accesible make it a gfci, but thats just me. ok now im on to other topics. I do respect your opinion and knowledge though.

 

[kwired]

also now that gfci's are required to be accesible , kind of goes hand in hand with behind the washer no gfci, above and accesible make it a gfci, but thats just me. ok now im on to other topics. I do respect your opinion and knowledge though.

Not going to tell you what your local code is cause I don't know. NEC though does still require GFCI if in mentioned areas whether it is above or behind the washer, and on top of that requires all GFCI devices to be readily accessible. This means if GFCI is necessary for a receptacle behind a washer, the GFCI device must be located elsewhere like an adjacent wall if it is not blocked by something or use a GFCI circuit breaker, or even a dead front GFCI device in any readily accessible location. Although most inspectors would allow it to be above the washer, it is debatable as to whether or not that is indeed readily accessible.

I can move on also.

 

[nizak]

Isn't most of the intent of the GFCI protection dealing with the cement floor that one would encounter in a garage or unfinished basement?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Isn't most of the intent of the GFCI protection dealing with the cement floor that one would encounter in a garage or unfinished basement?

Most of the intent of GFCI protection is dealing with cord and plug connected where it is more likely that the EGC path would be compromised as compared to hard wired equipment.