Using a 25hp VFD on a 30hp motor

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kwired

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I would say the 25 hp drive on a 30 hp motor that will never be loaded to more than 25 hp is likely not going to ever be much of an issue, though if anything is at least a violation of 110.3(B).

But you can only go so far with such an installation. Does anyone feel it would be OK to drive a 50 hp motor from a 10 hp drive as long as the load doesn't exceed 10 hp? Sounds like maybe you could, but also have to consider the reality of just how much power it takes to drive the 50 hp motor alone before even considering output power as compared to a 10 hp, and just what a waste it is to use a 50 hp motor to drive a 10 hp load. At least the 25 and 30 hp motors are going to have much closer to same characteristics than a 10 and 50 have.
 
I would say the 25 hp drive on a 30 hp motor that will never be loaded to more than 25 hp is likely not going to ever be much of an issue, though if anything is at least a violation of 110.3(B).

But you can only go so far with such an installation. Does anyone feel it would be OK to drive a 50 hp motor from a 10 hp drive as long as the load doesn't exceed 10 hp? Sounds like maybe you could, but also have to consider the reality of just how much power it takes to drive the 50 hp motor alone before even considering output power as compared to a 10 hp, and just what a waste it is to use a 50 hp motor to drive a 10 hp load. At least the 25 and 30 hp motors are going to have much closer to same characteristics than a 10 and 50 have.

I think that at least some of the drives would have a characterization problem with a large mismatch. In other words they would either not be able to 'accept' the connected motor or unable to reasonably well control it therefore damage either the drive or the motor. The controlling algorithm is built around a set of characteristics and parameters that a drive is expected to encounter for a variety of motors of the size within the range of the drive output at the top range. Those parameters take into consideration at least the NEMA MG1 and IEC motor Standard characteristics and the expected feeders between the drive and motors. The drives are 'globalized'.
 
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jim dungar

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...and what does the 'overload device' activates to interrupt the fault?
Sometimes a large contactor, sometimes just itself (e.g. properly sized fuses, manual motor starters, motor circuit protectors). There are a lot of different items.

The NEC definition of 'controller' simply mentions normal start-stop functions.
 

jim dungar

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A contactor is a binary controller. It does NOT control current, it controls voltage. The current is the resultant product and it depends on the connected circuit characteristics.
A mechanically contactor starts and stops a motor by making and breaking current.
Have you read the NEC definitions?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
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I think that at least some of the drives would have a characterization problem with a large mismatch. In other words they would either not be able to 'accept' the connected motor or unable to reasonably well control it therefore damage either the drive or the motor. The controlling algorithm is built around a set of characteristics and parameters that a drive is expected to encounter for a variety of motors of the size within the range of the drive output at the top range. Those parameters take into consideration at least the NEMA MG1 and IEC motor Standard characteristics and the expected feeders between the drive and motors. The drives are 'globalized'.
I would kind of expect that myself. A 10 hp drive trying to accelerate a 50 hp motor even with no connected load may see characteristics it is not expecting and will consider them to be faults. Motor windings will have much different impedance in this large of a mismatch. It may not have as much difficulty maintaining things if it is already spinning, but you have to get started before you are at that point, speed changes still may result in problems.
 

jim dungar

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In my humble opinion 110.3(A)(7) gives the AHJ all the ammunition they need to turn this down.
They can use the same reference to accept it, based on the 'current' ratings of the motor and VFD.

One thing about HP ratings, is the ability to make and break Locked Rotor Current, which is often many multiples of nominal running current. The output of the majority of VFD is rarely even 1.5X nominal, therefore the locked rotor amps of the motor may often be a non-issue.
 
They can use the same reference to accept it, based on the 'current' ratings of the motor and VFD.

One thing about HP ratings, is the ability to make and break Locked Rotor Current, which is often many multiples of nominal running current. The output of the majority of VFD is rarely even 1.5X nominal, therefore the locked rotor amps of the motor may often be a non-issue.

Sort of yes and no:

ACS550 manual

Typical ratings:

Normal use (10% overload capability)
I2N continuous rms current. 10% overload is allowed for one minute in ten minutes.
PN typical motor power in normal use. The kilowatt power ratings apply to most IEC, 4-pole
motors. The horsepower ratings apply to most 4-pole NEMA motors.

Heavy-duty use (50% overload capability)
I2hd continuous rms current. 50% overload is allowed for one minute in ten minutes.
Phd typical motor power in heavy duty use. The kilowatt power ratings apply to most IEC, 4-pole
motors. The horsepower ratings apply to most 4-pole NEMA motors.

The magnitude and duration of the maximum current output or the decay characteristics of the slope is not directly available from the manual and it varies with each drive size. That is one of the reasons why it is difficult to calculate the actual short circuit contribution of the drives, besides of the X''/R'' characteristic.
 

jim dungar

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ACS550 manual

You have moved from a general discussion into one of specific details to prove there are exceptions. The OP did not provide enough information to conclude the system was a 'drive package' where the characteristics of the AFC and motor need to be compatible (e.g. flux vector control) versus a general application using a simple V/HZ algorithm.
 
You have moved from a general discussion into one of specific details to prove there are exceptions. The OP did not provide enough information to conclude the system was a 'drive package' where the characteristics of the AFC and motor need to be compatible (e.g. flux vector control) versus a general application using a simple V/HZ algorithm.

Again, yes and no. I was replying to your statement that

"The output of the majority of VFD is rarely even 1.5X nominal, therefore the locked rotor amps of the motor may often be a non-issue."

I can post at least 4 other major ASD manufacturers data where the 150% overload capability is a regular feature.
 

jim dungar

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Again, yes and no. I was replying to your statement that

"The output of the majority of VFD is rarely even 1.5X nominal, therefore the locked rotor amps of the motor may often be a non-issue."

I can post at least 4 other major ASD manufacturers data where the 150% overload capability is a regular feature.

How many do you want to see where the output is less than 150%, such as the ACS310?

My point was; when considering VFD applications the multiples of locked rotor current used in determining HP ratings, is often a non-issue.
 
How many do you want to see where the output is less than 150%, such as the ACS310?

My point was; when considering VFD applications the multiples of locked rotor current used in determining HP ratings, is often a non-issue.

If that was your point, then I also disagree. I would say that locked rotor current is NEVER an issue in determining any NEC device sizing for an ASD either on the input or output side.

BTW I don't understand "the multiples of locked rotor current used in determining HP ratings".
 

jim dungar

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If that was your point, then I also disagree. I would say that locked rotor current is NEVER an issue in determining any NEC device sizing for an ASD either on the input or output side.
I am pretty sure that sizing a variable speed fire pump controller, involves locked rotor current.
 

Jraef

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Guys, here's the issue from a VFD mfr's perspective.

When you UL list a VFD, you are allowed to list it for TWO motor power ratings, based on the fact that a VFD is a power CONVERSION device, not simply a motor controller. So back in the day (it's changed a little now*), we could UL list the EXACT SAME drive as a 30HP Variable Torque drive, or a 25HP Constant Torque drive. It was EXACTLY the same drive, but the NAMEPLATE had to state the worst case scenario, the Constant Torque rating.

The difference is in the LOAD APPLICATION, because the VFD has a different Overload Capacity based on what you want to do with it. In a Variable Torque application, such as a CENTRIFUGAL pump or fan, the load does not couple with the machine at the same rate throughout the speed range, so you do NOT need the same overload capacity in the VFD components. It's essentially an acknowledgement that there is nothing about the machine (pump or fan) that will cause the VFD to need to pump out more current that what it is safely able to handle. If the machine was a Constant Torque application, it might need that extra "umph" to get started, so the VFD might need to pump out 150% of it's rated continuous current for upward of 60 seconds. That meant the transistors needed to be de-rated to handle that potential.

The difference INSIDE of the drive was (is) in the overload settings. If you are using the VFD on a Variable Torque load, there is a programming parameter or a switch inside that changes the V/Hz output from being linear, to being a curve, V/Hz2. When using that feature, it ONLY works on a VT load, so then they use that info to allow you to program a HIGHER motor FLA into the drive, based on the VT motor HP rating. If you disable that, then the VFD will LOWER the maximum motor FLA that you can set it at commensurate with the CT motor HP rating.

Example: VFD says it is 75HP CT, but can be used as 100HP VT. If you enable the VT settings, you can program the motor FLA to be 124A, what it would need for a 100HP motor. If you do NOT enable the VT settings, you can only set the motor FLA to 104A, the FLC of a 75HP motor. All of this is ONLY possible with a VFD because it is controlling ALL aspects of the power going to the motor. Did this stop people from hooking up a 100HP motor on a machine that was Constant Torque and trying to run it from a VFD that was only rated for 100HP as a VT drive? No, it did not. But the VFD would simply co into current limit and NOT ALLOW the motor to develop more than 75HP, which means it would not allow it to go to more than 3/4 speed, or trip off line.

So can you use a 25HP "rated" drive on a 30HP motor? Maybe. If it is on a centrifugal fan or pump, the VFD may indeed be rated for 30HP VT, but will say that you cannot overload it for more than 105% for 30 seconds (which is essentially saying that you CANNOT overload it). Because of some more archaic rules, the controller nameplate was only able to list the CT rating, the WORST CASE scenario for the drive, but if you look up the listing information, the VFD mfr was allowed to state that it is appropriate for use on 30HP motor if it is enabled as a Variable Torque application.

* Much of this has changed now, we no longer use the terms VT and CT for drives, it was something that a lot of people had a hard time understanding. So now we say "Normal Duty" and "Heavy Duty", and state the specific motor power ratings at both of the two levels. Plus the DEFAULT settings of the drive now are for "Normal Duty", so if you ACTIVELY SELECT the HD feature, THEN it lowers the FLA setting range you can program it for.
 
I am pretty sure that sizing a variable speed fire pump controller, involves locked rotor current.

So you are saying that those ASD's are (over)sized to carry the locked rotor current indefinitely? From the MasterControls presentation that does not appear to be the case. The same is for soft starts appear to be the case. So FM approves Fire Pump controllers that is not sized according to the NEC rules. At least that's how it looks to me at least from one Vendor's data.
 
Guys, here's the issue from a VFD mfr's perspective.

When you UL list a VFD, you are allowed to list it for TWO motor power ratings, based on the fact that a VFD is a power CONVERSION device, not simply a motor controller. So back in the day (it's changed a little now*), we could UL list the EXACT SAME drive as a 30HP Variable Torque drive, or a 25HP Constant Torque drive. It was EXACTLY the same drive, but the NAMEPLATE had to state the worst case scenario, the Constant Torque rating.

The difference is in the LOAD APPLICATION, because the VFD has a different Overload Capacity based on what you want to do with it. In a Variable Torque application, such as a CENTRIFUGAL pump or fan, the load does not couple with the machine at the same rate throughout the speed range, so you do NOT need the same overload capacity in the VFD components. It's essentially an acknowledgement that there is nothing about the machine (pump or fan) that will cause the VFD to need to pump out more current that what it is safely able to handle. If the machine was a Constant Torque application, it might need that extra "umph" to get started, so the VFD might need to pump out 150% of it's rated continuous current for upward of 60 seconds. That meant the transistors needed to be de-rated to handle that potential.

The difference INSIDE of the drive was (is) in the overload settings. If you are using the VFD on a Variable Torque load, there is a programming parameter or a switch inside that changes the V/Hz output from being linear, to being a curve, V/Hz2. When using that feature, it ONLY works on a VT load, so then they use that info to allow you to program a HIGHER motor FLA into the drive, based on the VT motor HP rating. If you disable that, then the VFD will LOWER the maximum motor FLA that you can set it at commensurate with the CT motor HP rating.

Example: VFD says it is 75HP CT, but can be used as 100HP VT. If you enable the VT settings, you can program the motor FLA to be 124A, what it would need for a 100HP motor. If you do NOT enable the VT settings, you can only set the motor FLA to 104A, the FLC of a 75HP motor. All of this is ONLY possible with a VFD because it is controlling ALL aspects of the power going to the motor. Did this stop people from hooking up a 100HP motor on a machine that was Constant Torque and trying to run it from a VFD that was only rated for 100HP as a VT drive? No, it did not. But the VFD would simply co into current limit and NOT ALLOW the motor to develop more than 75HP, which means it would not allow it to go to more than 3/4 speed, or trip off line.

So can you use a 25HP "rated" drive on a 30HP motor? Maybe. If it is on a centrifugal fan or pump, the VFD may indeed be rated for 30HP VT, but will say that you cannot overload it for more than 105% for 30 seconds (which is essentially saying that you CANNOT overload it). Because of some more archaic rules, the controller nameplate was only able to list the CT rating, the WORST CASE scenario for the drive, but if you look up the listing information, the VFD mfr was allowed to state that it is appropriate for use on 30HP motor if it is enabled as a Variable Torque application.

* Much of this has changed now, we no longer use the terms VT and CT for drives, it was something that a lot of people had a hard time understanding. So now we say "Normal Duty" and "Heavy Duty", and state the specific motor power ratings at both of the two levels. Plus the DEFAULT settings of the drive now are for "Normal Duty", so if you ACTIVELY SELECT the HD feature, THEN it lowers the FLA setting range you can program it for.

So can we safely say that the NEC does have difficulty keeping current with technological development, consequently there are devices with capabilities that are useless unless you're willing to violate the LETTER of the NEC 'law'? (The NEC makes no allowance for multi-rating of the same device, therefore the 'spector can argue violation.
 

Jraef

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So can we safely say that the NEC does have difficulty keeping current with technological development, consequently there are devices with capabilities that are useless unless you're willing to violate the LETTER of the NEC 'law'? (The NEC makes no allowance for multi-rating of the same device, therefore the 'spector can argue violation.
It was that way for a while, and it did cause a lot of confusion. A lot of people found themselves getting listing data from mfrs to show to AHJs, then sometimes losing anyway. VFD mfrs now use either a different part number based on the factory default rating, or they have a dual nameplate. For example with Allen Bradley drives there is a good example of both methods. In the older method, a PF40 drive is listed at it's Heavy Duty (Constant Torque) rating, but if you want the same drive re-rated to a higher HP as a Normal Duty drive for Variable Torque applications, you buy it as a PF400. Same drive, different part number. In the new method, if you look at a PF755 drive, the part number is the same either way. The nameplate on the drive states both motor power ratings, but the drive is UL listed only at the Norml Duty rating in terms of current. So for example if you buy a 10HP ND drive, it is listed as a 14A continuous drive. But if you enable the HD option, the maximum FLC that you can then program into the drive is lowered to 11A, making it a 7.5 HP drive, just capable of more overload current because inside, the components are actually rated for higher current. This now avoids what the OP sees in this situation. If you walk up and see a VFD rated for 10HP but it is connected to a 7.5HP motor, nobody will question it. That's why the change was made. His is probably an older vintage from before the mfrs figured this out, or it is an Asian drive, because some of them still have not seen the light since this is more of a North American issue.

My point was to explain why the OP may have been seeing what he believed to be a VFD that was smaller than the motor, when in fact it may have been acceptable under the right circumstances.
 
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I was asked early this morning if it was OK to use a 25 hp rated variable speed drive on a 30 hp motor as "the motor won't ever see full load for the application".

I poked around art. 430 and the sections that apply to adjustable speed drives and did not see that this would be prohibited.

Any opinions on this or did I miss something?

Thanks.

2011 NEC 110.2 requires equipment to be used within its approval rating. As the 25hp VFD was not UL listed for 30HP, it is in violation of the NEC.
 
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