Listing & compatibility of lighting fixture

[cppoly]

All lighting fixtures need to be UL listed correct? What about the compatibility of lighting controls with light fixtures?

For instance, a lighting manufacturer is claiming compatibility between Lutron's Nova dimmer and the neon/cold cathode lighting fixture. But, according to Lutron's datasheet for this dimmer, it is not showing that it is compatible with this type of fixture. The manufacturer is saying they worked with Lutron in the past and have used this dimmer (it is a fluorescent dimmer not neon/cold cathode). But is this acceptable?

Also, the electronic ballast with this fixture should be UL listed too? I don't see this on the datasheet.

 

[al hildenbrand]

All lighting fixtures need to be UL listed correct?

First, UL doesn't hold the crown. UL is only one of several Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (NRTLs).

Second, be sure to check for local or State ordinance. Where I am, the State of Minnesota, the State Electrical Act has clear avenues for unlisted equipment, including luminaires, to be installed.

What about the compatibility of lighting controls with light fixtures?

For instance, a lighting manufacturer is claiming compatibility between Lutron's Nova dimmer and the neon/cold cathode lighting fixture. But, according to Lutron's datasheet for this dimmer, it is not showing that it is compatible with this type of fixture. The manufacturer is saying they worked with Lutron in the past and have used this dimmer (it is a fluorescent dimmer not neon/cold cathode).

What does Lutron Tech support say about your question? Even an online data sheet may be out of date.

the electronic ballast with this fixture should be UL listed too? I don't see this on the datasheet.

As a sub part of the luminaire, I would defer to the label on the ballast itself, as it is not likely that the luminaire manufacturer is the manufacturer of the ballast. Again, it is not restricted to being only UL, but rather NRTL listed.

 

[infinity]

It would be a violation to use a Lutron dimmer outside of it's listing. If it's not listed to be used with a specific product by Lutron then it shouldn't be used as such.

 

[cppoly]

Is there a list of NRTLs? I called up Lutron and they are the ones that told me that their specific dimmer is not compatible, which I agree with Infinity that it wouldn't be allowed to use this combination of dimmer and fixture. In section 410, it says the light fixture and ballast must be listed for neon lighting (greater than 1,000V). I requested the spec sheet from the manufacturer showing their listing. I just need to know which one is acceptable. Same for the ballast.

 

[John120/240]

Is there a list of NRTLs? .

Try goggle...http://www.osha.gov/dts/optca/nrtl/

 

[al hildenbrand]

Try goggle...http://www.osha.gov/dts/optca/nrtl/

Nice suggestion. There's a slight error in the URL. Try clicking here .

 

[cppoly]

The light fixture is custom and as such is not a listed light fixture. Does that mean it is not allowed to be installed according the NEC?

 

[infinity]

Listed.

410.6 Listing Required. All luminaires and lampholders
shall be listed.

 

[al hildenbrand]

The light fixture is custom and as such is not a listed light fixture. Does that mean it is not allowed to be installed according the NEC?

. . . be sure to check for local or State ordinance. Where I am, the State of Minnesota, the State Electrical Act has clear avenues for unlisted equipment, including luminaires, to be installed.

An assembly that is built out of listed pieces (wire, cord, plug, ballast, bulb, lampholder, wire connectors), and is a one off custom fixture, not manufactured for replication and mass distribution, is squarely in the middle of the Minnesota Electrical Act's allowance for an assembly, that doesn't have an umbrella NRTL listing, to be accepted by the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ).

I'd be cautious about using the NEC alone to fault the fixture till having investigated your local AHJ's knowledge of local applicable ordinance that expands, limits or modifies the NEC with respect to one-of-a-kind custom luminaires.

 

[cppoly]

An assembly that is built out of listed pieces (wire, cord, plug, ballast, bulb, lampholder, wire connectors), and is a one off custom fixture, not manufactured for replication and mass distribution, is squarely in the middle of the Minnesota Electrical Act's allowance for an assembly, that doesn't have an umbrella NRTL listing, to be accepted by the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ).

I'd be cautious about using the NEC alone to fault the fixture till having investigated your local AHJ's knowledge of local applicable ordinance that expands, limits or modifies the NEC with respect to one-of-a-kind custom luminaires.

The potential problem is that this neon lighting is not simple listed modular parts as described. Each neon letter is operating at 5,000V and is custom made and a connection to a listed ballast is made. The NEC says the fixture has to be listed so I don't want to approve something that may be a potential hazard.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Each neon letter is operating at 5,000V and is custom made and a connection to a listed ballast is made.

OK. Now I think you are describing something different than what you were letting us think. At 5 kV this sounds like it is commercial signage of some sort and that opens up Article 600.

The NEC says the fixture has to be listed so I don't want to approve something that may be a potential hazard.

Is the manufacturer working with 600.3(A)? The NEC could say not all of the fixture must be listed.

I think more detail is needed.

 

[cppoly]

This is an indoor neon light fixture so I think article 410.140 applies. This section is for electric discharge lighting systems over 1,000V. 600.3 is for signage lighting too but this applies for entrance signage lighting?


It's basically neon letters in a cafeteria that are custom made to spell out a few words using neon tubes and several transformers that produce the 5,000V signage voltage.

 

[al hildenbrand]

This is an indoor neon light fixture so I think article 410.140 applies. This section is for electric discharge lighting systems over 1,000V. 600.3 is for signage lighting too but this applies for entrance signage lighting?


It's basically neon letters in a cafeteria that are custom made to spell out a few words using neon tubes and several transformers that produce the 5,000V signage voltage.

The Scope of Article 600 is 600.1 and it does not exclude by location. Interior locations are included.

 

[cppoly]

I know but where is the distinction between section 410.140 & 600.1

 

[al hildenbrand]

I know but where is the distinction between section 410.140 & 600.1

Chapter 90 and specifically 90.3. Specifically:

Chapters 1 through 4 apply except as amended by Chapters 5, 6, and 7 for the particular conditions.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I don't want to approve something that may be a potential hazard.

It's obvious you are trying to find something to hang your hat on.

Try more information, like pictures of the assembly. But you may well find that the only thing wrong is fixable with minor corrections. But, if you don't give us more detail, you don't get a chance for finding a really good hat hook.

 

[cppoly]

My goal is to make sure I follow the NEC to ensure a safe installation. I am still learning which is why I am asking questions. I am not "trying to hang my hat" on anything. But I appreciate your input so far.

 

[renosteinke]

UL, besides listing specific models of mass-produced products, has a variety of "shop" listings. That is, they allow manufacturers to apply UL stickers to custom assemblies without fixture-specific evaluations, subject to review by UL.

There are UL-listed "Sign Shops," "Lighting Shops," "Alarm Shops," "Panel Shops," and, even, "Door Shops." This, for example, is how most neon signs are listed - they're assembled by the installer, and the UL label applied in the field.