Time clock controlled outlets in pot growing operation

[iwire]

That code section is about a switch acting as a disconnect, not about one acting as a controller.

I have to disagree there.

410.104 Electric-Discharge Lamp Auxiliary Equipment.



(B) Switching. Where supplied by the ungrounded conductors
of a circuit, the switching device of auxiliary equipment
shall simultaneously disconnect all conductors.

In my opinion that is the wall switch or contactor, etc. used to control the fixture.

 

[jumper]

I have to disagree there.



In my opinion that is the wall switch or contactor, etc. used to control the fixture.

Help me out here, brain is fuzzy.

Are you saying that a device used to control, not disconnect, a HID fixture must break all ungrounded conductors?

 

[iwire]

Help me out here, brain is fuzzy.

Are you saying that a device used to control, not disconnect, a HID fixture must break all ungrounded conductors?

Yes, 'switching device' includes both the disconnecting means and the controler.

If they had only meant the 'disconnect' it would say disconnecting means.


Here is an example from Article 424 that demonstrates that concept.

424.20 Thermostatically Controlled Switching Devices.

(A) Serving as Both Controllers and Disconnecting
Means. Thermostatically controlled switching devices and
combination thermostats and manually controlled switches
shall be permitted to serve as both controllers and disconnecting
means, provided they meet all of the following conditions:

(1) Provided with a marked “off” position

(2) Directly open all ungrounded conductors when manually
placed in the “off” position

(3) Designed so that the circuit cannot be energized automatically
after the device has been manually placed in
the “off” position

(4) Located as specified in 424.19

 

[jumper]

Yes, 'switching device' includes both the disconnecting means and the controler.

If they had only meant the 'disconnect' it would say disconnecting means.


Here is an example from Article 424 that demonstrates that concept.

But every pole light wired with L-L voltage with a twist lock photo cell that I have worked on breaks only one leg.

The internal quick connect breaks L-L for maintenance.

 

[iwire]

But every pole light wired with L-L voltage with a twist lock photo cell that I have worked on breaks only one leg.

What does that have to do with what the NEC clearly requires?

 

[jumper]

What does that have to do with what the NEC clearly requires?

So, it would be a case where a UL rated fixture can be wired that way, but I cannot field wire a fixture like that.

That's messed up.:rant:

 

[hillbilly1]

But every pole light wired with L-L voltage with a twist lock photo cell that I have worked on breaks only one leg.

The internal quick connect breaks L-L for maintenance.

But that is part of the fixture, manufactures do not have to follow the NEC. I think the reasoning behind fixtures having both lines disconnected is if one or more ballasts fails, voltage and amperage could flow causing the other fixtures to try to operate at the lower voltage, provided it is a grounded system.

 

[LEO2854]

But every pole light wired with L-L voltage with a twist lock photo cell that I have worked on breaks only one leg.

The internal quick connect breaks L-L for maintenance.

Here is a good question.

Does a 480 volt twist lock photocell switch two poles?

I just looked at the specs to many different brands and none of them say whether or not they do..:blink:

 

[iwire]

Here is a good question.

Does a 480 volt twist lock photocell switch two poles?

I just looked at the specs to many different brands and none of them say whether or not they do..:blink:

I think they all have only three prongs, hot, hot (or neutral) and switched hot.

 

[LEO2854]

I think they all have only three prongs, hot, hot (or neutral) and switched hot.

Yup Two hots and a neutral.

Jumper raised a good point,,I supose you could just remove the photocell to open both hots.

Sorry my point just left my mind...:blink::lol:

 

[hillbilly1]

Yup Two hots and a neutral.

Jumper raised a good point,,I supose you could just remove the photocell to open both hots.

Sorry my point just left my mind...:blink::lol:

Removing the photocell does not remove both hots though, only power to the photocell and one hot to the fixture, the other hot is fed straight through to the ballast.

 

[LEO2854]

Removing the photocell does not remove both hots though, only power to the photocell and one hot to the fixture, the other hot is fed straight through to the ballast.

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Doesn't that create a violation of 410.104(B) ?.

410.104(B) Switching. Where supplied by the ungrounded conductors
of a circuit, the switching device of auxiliary equipment
shall simultaneously disconnect all conductors.

 

[hillbilly1]

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Doesn't that create a violation of 410.104(B) ?.

410.104(B) Switching. Where supplied by the ungrounded conductors
of a circuit, the switching device of auxiliary equipment
shall simultaneously disconnect all conductors.

Not if its a listed part of the fixture. Manufactures are not governed by the NEC.

 

[kwired]

Only when the reddest of the red states finally legalizes pot will this sort of joke FINALLY die.

OBTopical -- as these sorts of operations become larger, better control will become important, which is why I think remotely viewable controls is the way to go. Of course, eventually people will grow the stuff in fields like every other commercially grown plant and a certain class of electrician will be very sad ...

Does not matter what product is grown, we already have equipment designed for the application of growing things for products that are not questionable. There alread are all kinds of commercial greenhouses growing many fruits, vegetables, and other plants for all kinds of purposes. Many of them already use automated control systems for heat, light, water, fertilizer, etc.

I do not see 547 applying here.

Agree 547 primarily applies to livestock buildings. For those that don't ever go into livestock operation buildings, they don't really understand what kind of conditions are encountered in those places. Here on this forum, horse barns is the application that seems to come up the most. Horse barns are actually a pretty mild environment compared to beef, swine or poultry operations, I have been in enough each of those types to put some of you to shame on any comments involving them especially when it comes to what really goes on in such installations. Code and practicality do not always get along in those buildings and you sometimes need to compromise. OTOH some of you have been into enough huge industrial plants to do the same to me.

 

[GoldDigger]

Yes, 'switching device' includes both the disconnecting means and the controler.

If they had only meant the 'disconnect' it would say disconnecting means.


Here is an example from Article 424 that demonstrates that concept.

Thermostatically controlled switching devices and
combination thermostats and manually controlled switches
shall be permitted to serve as both controllers and disconnecting
means, provided they meet all of the following conditions:

As I see it, this actually recognizes that the conditions do NOT apply to controllers unless that controller is also used to meet the disconnecting means requirement. I do not necessarily disagree with your point, but the code section you quoted does not support that point.

The section on lighting clearly refers to any switching device for a luminaire as having to disconnect all ungrounded wires. What is not clear to me from that is whether it applies to switches which are neither part of the luminaire itself nor manually operable.

 

[mivey]

You did not say but I assume the lighting is HID?

If so it is a violation to control it with just one leg.

410.104 Electric-Discharge Lamp Auxiliary Equipment.

(B) Switching. Where supplied by the ungrounded conductors of a circuit, the switching device of auxiliary equipment shall simultaneously disconnect all conductors.

Define auxiliary equipment 1st. Auxiliary equipment brings to mind things that are integral to the operation of the HID fixture like a ballast, capacitor, etc. Where does the code group a switch and/or contactor in with the fixture? It seems to me the contactor should be grouped with the switch instead.

 

[mivey]

As I see it, this actually recognizes that the conditions do NOT apply to controllers unless that controller is also used to meet the disconnecting means requirement. I do not necessarily disagree with your point, but the code section you quoted does not support that point.

I agree. I do not see the contactor as having to be the disconnect means.

 

[iwire]

I agree. I do not see the contactor as having to be the disconnect means.

You guys have lost me entirely.

I have not said the contactor must be the disconnecting means.


What I have said is that any switching device controling an HID fixture must open all ungrounded conductors.


A switching device could be a wall switch, a contactor, a safety switch etc.

 

[iwire]

Define auxiliary equipment 1st. Auxiliary equipment brings to mind things that are integral to the operation of the HID fixture like a ballast, capacitor, etc. Where does the code group a switch and/or contactor in with the fixture? It seems to me the contactor should be grouped with the switch instead.

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say.

The contactor is not aux equipment, I never said it was.

 

[electrofelon]

Most of the lighting is LED, however there is some HID lighting. I have always had this philosophy that the NEC sort of ends at a receptacle. I am open to some code references or precedents on this, but can someone violate the NEC by plugging in a UL listed device into an outlet? The example in this thread is having 250v outlet with one pole switched. If that itself is not a violation, can it become a violation depending on what I plug into it? Is it a violation for someone to plug a light into their small appliance circuit?