How to bid a remodel?

[John120/240]

Don't do any work without the appliance specs! I just completed a kitchen. I was told there would be a direct replacement of the gas stove. After the kitchen was completed I get a call, "the breaker trips when I turn on the warming oven." The gas stove is on the same circuit as the fridge and the stove requires a dedicated minimum 15 amp circuit. No one wants to own this problem.

Warming oven has me confused. Does the warming oven take the place of the bottom storage drawer in the range ? All of the warming

ovens that i have installed were a separate appliance on its own 20 A circuit. A standard gas range would use 120 V power for ignitor,

clock & oven light. Sharing a 15 A circuit with standard gas range & fridge should not be a problem

 

[Greg1707]

warming oven

warming oven

Yes, the warming oven is the bottom drawer and is electric. I have not yet returned to verify the problem. I checked the specs online and they require 15 amp dedicated circuit, however; I am surprised anything call "warming oven" would require so much amperage.

 

[kwired]

I had a customer once changed a motor from a 1 or 2 HP motor to a 30HP and never did understand why the fuses kept blowing. Did not want to pay to change out the motor starter or fuses. I would guess eventually he had to do something with it. As far as I am concerned, the guy that owns it owns, and it is not me, unless I am the guy that owns it.

Only a slight difference in frame size, shaft size, or required controller and conductors here. Sounds like something Tim Taylor would have done on "Home Improvement"

Yes, the warming oven is the bottom drawer and is electric. I have not yet returned to verify the problem. I checked the specs online and they require 15 amp dedicated circuit, however; I am surprised anything call "warming oven" would require so much amperage.

15 amp circuit could handle up to 1800 watts non continuous 1440 continuous, doesn't seem all that high for the task to me.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Musings from the forum plumber..

Musings from the forum plumber..

In addition to doing research on all possible items, like the appliances, cabinets, etc., you have to figure out the "unknowns"..... Will you have to work around the kids, dogs, furniture, how is access to basement, crawl, attic? May not be a big factor on a job like this, but doing a new heat pump/A.C. install, or a bath remodel in an existing house can cause mucho headaches and additional costs if the working conditions are difficult.

 

[PetrosA]

Yes, the warming oven is the bottom drawer and is electric. I have not yet returned to verify the problem. I checked the specs online and they require 15 amp dedicated circuit, however; I am surprised anything call "warming oven" would require so much amperage.

A warming oven will probably heat to 175-350 degrees, and it needs to do that in a short time. This seems normal to me. Asking for specs ahead of time will ensure that things go smoothly next time. I recently looked at a kitchen and the lady tells me that the microwave "is going here." I asked for specs and it turns out this is some 1800 watt commercial unit they want. Finished basement, new 20A circuit, different price, no issues later

 

[Speshulk]

Don't do any work without the appliance specs! I just completed a kitchen. I was told there would be a direct replacement of the gas stove. After the kitchen was completed I get a call, "the breaker trips when I turn on the warming oven." The gas stove is on the same circuit as the fridge and the stove requires a dedicated minimum 15 amp circuit. No one wants to own this problem.

Since we're talking about rules of thumb, here's one: Don't connect the anything to the refrigerator circuit other than the refrigerator. That way if there's something else on the circuit that trips it out and no one notices, the customer doesn't lose half the food in the fridge.

 

[kwired]

Since we're talking about rules of thumb, here's one: Don't connect the anything to the refrigerator circuit other than the refrigerator. That way if there's something else on the circuit that trips it out and no one notices, the customer doesn't lose half the food in the fridge.

Why only half? Does half the fridge still work with no power?

 

[stevenje]

Why only half? Does half the fridge still work with no power?

It's half full of beer.

 

[kwired]

It's half full of beer.

Now I am starting to understand better

 

[Greg1707]

800 watts warming oven tripping gfci

800 watts warming oven tripping gfci

I returned and checked name plate of the appliances on the circuit. The gas stove warming oven is 800 watts. The fridge is 11 amps. I turned on the warming oven and after about five minutes the GFCI receptacle tripped. It was not the circuit breaker that was tripping. I rewired the receptacle so that the gas stove was not on the load side of the GFCI. That solved the problem.

 

[kwired]

I returned and checked name plate of the appliances on the circuit. The gas stove warming oven is 800 watts. The fridge is 11 amps. I turned on the warming oven and after about five minutes the GFCI receptacle tripped. It was not the circuit breaker that was tripping. I rewired the receptacle so that the gas stove was not on the load side of the GFCI. That solved the problem.

Even though the receptacle may not be required to be GFCI protected, you still treated the symptom and not the problem. A quick look at the stove may have found something obvious.

 

[Greg1707]

obvious problem

obvious problem

Even though the receptacle may not be required to be GFCI protected, you still treated the symptom and not the problem. A quick look at the stove may have found something obvious.

That is a valid point but what would be an obvious problem with a new gas stove that would trip a GFCI?

 

[kwired]

That is a valid point but what would be an obvious problem with a new gas stove that would trip a GFCI?

People at the assembly plant do make mistakes, there are numerous possibilities. Pinched conductor, damaged insulation, defective components, loose parts, foreign materials contacting circuit components and grounded components, someone simply connected something the wrong way, unit was assembled near the end of the day on a Friday ....

 

[emfforhire]

Bid

Bid

Price out the material and add no less than a 50% mark up. Picture the whole job in your head and write down in steps how much time each segment of the job will take. After that divide the total number of hours by 8 for one man or 16 for two men. Can you see yourself spending the resulting number of days there realistically then use that total. If it seems like to much or to little then adjust accordingly. You can then use your normal service call hourly rate times the number of hours and perhaps discount it 10% due to the fact you will not have much lost time (like between service calls). Do not forget permit fees and time for meeting inspectors. Factors that apply to your over all price or things like the site condition and if the GC seems organized or is he an idiot. Add time for idiots! If they want to make changes then price them out before you do them and have it agreed on before doing the extra work. Per opening prices only work on very repetitive type work so do not use that method for remodel work. Bidding is as much an art as it is a science. Good luck.

 

[LEO2854]

Roger that!
I would say you have very little chance of getting the job unless you are way low. And I'd also say that the GC's regular electrician is about to get beat up with your price.......

X2 on that,The GC wants to see your rate per hour so he can cut you down to as close as he can get to minimum wage.

Give him a grand total price and stand your ground because he's just setting up the other guy for the kill.

 

[220/221]

contractor wants to see a breakdown. I am wondering what a per opening quote or a per circuit qoute would look like. Im also looking for a kind of "what would this project bid for."

Sub total $XXX.00
Tax $ XX.00
Total $XXX.00


Tell him, "There's your breakdown pal"

When someone other than a huge corporate account asks for a breakdown, I move on.


We do kitchen remodel every single day and have a set price list for circuits, recessed cans, switches, pendant lights etc.

Don't forget the demo/trace/rewire money. Sometimes it's not much. Other times you show up and there are cables hanging everywhere.

And don't forget the microwave circuit when they replace the vent hood with a microwave/vent.

And, they are always removing the soffits and there is always a bunch of cables the shortcut thru them.

Here is another hint. The salesmen ALWAYS leave things out so their price looks better. Then you have to be the bad guy and tell them they need that new circuit. Be specific in a line item bid that you are doing X work for X dollars and get changes approved before you do them if you expect to get paid. Sometimes they make it harder to get approval than it is to do the work. This is by design so they can lay it on you. They are devious and clever bastards.

 

[mike@mikeholt.com]

Just learn to do it right!

Just learn to do it right!

The only way to bid a job is to follow proper estimating proceduresusing labor units, once you know the bill of material you apply the labor unit factor, get the cost of the material from the supplier, apply overhead cost per labor hour, then profit. There is no other way to DO IT RIGHT. If you do not follow proper business practices, you'll either not get the job because you are too high or worst yet get the job because you are too low. I know it appears that I'm 'selling' my Estimating Homestudy program in my post, but I'm really not. We at Mike Holt Enterprises really care about our customers and want then to be successfull.

Please don't be bidding jobs if you don't know how to estimate properly using labor units; make the investment in Education, it will pay.

 

[Haji]

The only way to bid a job is to follow proper estimating proceduresusing labor units, once you know the bill of material you apply the labor unit factor, get the cost of the material from the supplier, apply overhead cost per labor hour, then profit. There is no other way to DO IT RIGHT. If you do not follow proper business practices, you'll either not get the job because you are too high or worst yet get the job because you are too low. I know it appears that I'm 'selling' my Estimating Homestudy program in my post, but I'm really not. We at Mike Holt Enterprises really care about our customers and want then to be successfull.

Please don't be bidding jobs if you don't know how to estimate properly using labor units; make the investment in Education, it will pay.

One more thing to be factored into bidding is professional ethics, e.g. not to form or become a member in a syndicate of contractors for boosting up quoted rates.
{By the way, it is thrilling to be discussing with the legendary MIKEHOLT.}

 

[barkerf]

Kitchen Remodel

Kitchen Remodel

I would never show the GC a cost per outlet. Instead I would produce a quote (one price) for the entire job. It would be a two day job for me, and a helper.

 

[mlnk]

Note to greg1707:
1. Under 2011 NEC, a refrigerator in a residential kitchen is not required to be GFCI protected. It can be on a SA circuit upstream from the GFCI. I think good practice is to run a separate unprotected 20 amp circuit for the refrig.
2. If you ran a 15 amp separate circuit for the refrig and it had GFCI protection, the GFCI device would be behind the refrig. I think this is a Code violation because it is not readily accessible. (if you have a GFCI breaker, that is Code legal.)
3. I think it is a bad idea to run a 15 amp circuit to two stationary appliances that are rated 11 amps and 6.7 amps. That is 17.7 amps. But it may not be a violation. There is a rule that a dedicated circuit to one appliance is limited to 50% of the circuit rating, but I do not think that applies to two appliances. (but it should)
4. If the manufacturer requires a separate 15 amp circuit, it is a Code violation to share that circuit.
5. It is not required, but I run a separate 20 amp circuit to the range hood anticipating a future MW at that location.
I suggest you return to the job, run a separate circuit to the range and remove the GFCI if it is behind the refrigerator.
Incidentally, I do not buy this "refrig are better nowadays, so put them on a GFCI." Most of them are much worse...I think you know why.