NJ Rehab Subcode

[Strummed]

I'm having a problem with an inspector and I just want to confirm this before arguing it.

I replaced an old Federal Pacific main panel for a customer that was worried about it causing a fire. I replaced the panel with a like sized main breaker panel, nothing else. I did not upgrade the service size or touch anything else.

Knowing the above, are the following two statements true?

A) I do not have to upgrade the grounding (no matter what is existing).

B) I do not have to add AFCI breakers to any of the branch circuits.

As far as the NJ Rehab subcode these are correct, right?

 

[mjf]

I'm not in Jersey, so I don't know.

I do always upgrade the grounding and bonding. Helps me to sleep soundly at night.

 

[Strummed]

I'm not in Jersey, so I don't know.

I do always upgrade the grounding and bonding. Helps me to sleep soundly at night.

Ok, so if I am reading this correctly, you can't help with my question at all, but you posted just to tell me that my code compliant installation that the customer asked for is something that I should be ashamed of?

 

[mjf]

Ok, so if I am reading this correctly, you can't help with my question at all, but you posted just to tell me that my code compliant installation that the customer asked for is something that I should be ashamed of?

Absolutely not at all.Please don't take any offense or get defensive. Has nothing to do with shame or anything like it.

I'm telling you that I upgrade the grounding and bonding systems and it allows me to sleep better at night. Installing the AFCI's would not change how I sleep!

Now you made my curious, though. If you know your install is code compliant.......why the original post and 2 questions in the first place?

 

[Strummed]

Now you made my curious, though. If you know your install is code compliant.......why the original post and 2 questions in the first place?

I think now you're just being argumentative.

The first sentence of the original post explains why I am asking.

 

[gadfly56]

I think now you're just being argumentative.

The first sentence of the original post explains why I am asking.

If Rick Napier stops by, he might give you a definitive opinion, but I believe you are correct. I'm about 80% sure on the grounding and 99% sure on the AFCI breakers.

 

[Strummed]

If Rick Napier stops by, he might give you a definitive opinion, but I believe you are correct. I'm about 80% sure on the grounding and 99% sure on the AFCI breakers.

Thanks.

Everything that I've read, every seminar or CEU that I've taken has agreed with the two statements above. However, they have been wrong before so I would like to be sure.

 

[gadfly56]

Thanks.

Everything that I've read, every seminar or CEU that I've taken has agreed with the two statements above. However, they have been wrong before so I would like to be sure.

The only fly in the ointment I can see would be if, for some reason, there was no ground or it had been removed or was otherwise ineffective. In that case, you'd have to provide a ground complient with the current NEC (2011).

 

[hotwire1955]

NJ Rehab code is like for like, if the grounding was done per code when the panel was first installed then that is all that is required and you do not need Arc fault breakers. Invest in a copy of the NJ UCC you will see that there are many things not required in rehab.

 

[Strummed]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen.

Invest in a copy of the NJ UCC you will see that there are many things not required in rehab.

I have one, however, much like the NEC, there is room for interpretation. Or at last the inspector who failed my job for not upgrading the grounding thinks there is :rant:

 

[mjf]

I think now you're just being argumentative.

The first sentence of the original post explains why I am asking.

haha....I'm a dumb-ass...didn't re-read the first sentence. sorry if it seemed argumentative..not my intent.

 

[coffeebean]

You have to bring the grounding up to current code and you defiantly don't have to install AFCI breakers on an existing dwelling service change.

 

[Strummed]

You have to bring the grounding up to current code

So that's one vote yes and three votes no :lol:

I see your profile says that you are an inspector. So you say that the Rehab Subcode doesn't allow you to change a panel out without upgrading the grounding?

you defiantly don't have to install AFCI breakers on an existing dwelling service change.

a service change was never part of this topic.

 

[hotwire1955]

You have to bring the grounding up to current code and you defiantly don't have to install AFCI breakers on an existing dwelling service change.

Not true,as long as it is installed per code when first installed it is like for like.

 

[kwired]

a service change was never part of this topic.

That would depend on how the AHJ defines what is a service change wouldn't it?

You did change what most would consider most of the service. Apparently the rest of the service was deemed acceptable as is or you would have been changing more of the service. Not much more to a typical dwelling service to have to change anyway. Usually a few feet of service conductors and a meter socket. If supplied from a drop you will have maybe a mast, point of attachment, etc. but if served from a lateral, all there really is ahead of meter is a raceway and service conductors that apparently need no changing because they are already code compliant. So question is do you have to change all of service related components to call it a service change or upgrade?

If you replace the engine in your car with same as original because original was worn out, don't you still have a new engine or do you have to replace every little item under the hood along with the base engine block to call it a new engine?

Around here if you replace a 200 amp service panel with a 200 amp service panel it is a service change, and will be inspected in similar manner as a 100 to 200 amp panel change. If existing supply conductors are sufficient, and grounding electrode system is sufficient for the new "service" panel then nothing needs done with those items, if they are not sufficient then changes are necessary. Maybe your AHJ is different though.

 

[Strummed]

Lol :lol::lol:

 

[__dan]

I'm having a problem with an inspector and I just want to confirm this before arguing it.

I replaced an old Federal Pacific main panel for a customer that was worried about it causing a fire. I replaced the panel with a like sized main breaker panel, nothing else. I did not upgrade the service size or touch anything else.

Knowing the above, are the following two statements true?

A) I do not have to upgrade the grounding (no matter what is existing).

B) I do not have to add AFCI breakers to any of the branch circuits.

As far as the NJ Rehab subcode these are correct, right?

Your OP does not indicate that you actually checked the grounding and passed what you found.

My view is if I change the main panel, at some point I have to restore power, and as the last guy to touch it, make repair, and turn the power back on, I have some liability for that. Absolutely I will visually inspect the ground rod, water meter ground, and the bond to the cold water pipe if no city water. Even though not required by the 2005, I usually install the intersystem bonding bar.

If the GEC is run but the clamps are corroded or wrong type, I clean and change. If one ground rod is present, I do not add a second (unless the first one is there but questionable). If I look and cannot find the ground rod and /or water pipe bond is according to the conventions now, I upgrade. No hesitation, I work, feel good about it, and walk away on to the next one. I cannot go through the day wondering every day what thing I ignored will show up at my door registered mail.

So you see, when the next bad thing happens (fire, smoked electronics, personal injury), by intent or negligence or the willful actions of total morons, bad grounding will automatically go on the list of possible causes and be checked. My documentation will show what I checked (ground rod and water cold pipe bond), what I found, and made repairs as necessary.

If the grounding is found bad at that time in the future, saying it was not required by the NJ repair rehab code is not gonna fly. They will say "you turned the power on" and your action caused a voltage difference between the stove and the sink, shocking this poor basket case total moron, who did the right thing by hiring a licensed person to repair this electrical deficiency.

http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/observations-of-stupid-things-people-do.107227/

 

[Gregg Harris]

Under the New Jersey rehab the service panel alone can be changed and no AFCI is required unless a new branch circuit is run.

Upgraiding the grounding is allso not required according to NJAC 5:23-6.8(d)
Materials and Methods

 

[mjf]

Your OP does not indicate that you actually checked the grounding and passed what you found.

My view is if I change the main panel, at some point I have to restore power, and as the last guy to touch it, make repair, and turn the power back on, I have some liability for that. Absolutely I will visually inspect the ground rod, water meter ground, and the bond to the cold water pipe if no city water. Even though not required by the 2005, I usually install the intersystem bonding bar.

If the GEC is run but the clamps are corroded or wrong type, I clean and change. If one ground rod is present, I do not add a second (unless the first one is there but questionable). If I look and cannot find the ground rod and /or water pipe bond is according to the conventions now, I upgrade. No hesitation, I work, feel good about it, and walk away on to the next one. I cannot go through the day wondering every day what thing I ignored will show up at my door registered mail.

So you see, when the next bad thing happens (fire, smoked electronics, personal injury), by intent or negligence or the willful actions of total morons, bad grounding will automatically go on the list of possible causes and be checked. My documentation will show what I checked (ground rod and water cold pipe bond), what I found, and made repairs as necessary.

If the grounding is found bad at that time in the future, saying it was not required by the NJ repair rehab code is not gonna fly. They will say "you turned the power on" and your action caused a voltage difference between the stove and the sink, shocking this poor basket case total moron, who did the right thing by hiring a licensed person to repair this electrical deficiency.

http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/observations-of-stupid-things-people-do.107227/

Yeah, I guess this is kinda what I was trying to say. I'm just not that eloquent. Bottom line for me I guess is CYA.

 

[Strummed]

Your OP does not indicate that you actually checked the grounding and passed what you found.

My question is about whether or not the NJ Rehab Subcode allows us to change out a main panel without updating the grounding. It doesn't matter what was found on the job.

My view is if I change the main panel, at some point I have to restore power, and as the last guy to touch it, make repair, and turn the power back on, I have some liability for that.

You may have some liability, but a very, very minuscule amount. As long as you followed code you are as safe as you are going to get. If you worry that much about liability, this isn't the trade for you. Everything we touch can lead to something happening down the road...

If the grounding is found bad at that time in the future, saying it was not required by the NJ repair rehab code is not gonna fly.

Again, I completely disagree with that. Documenting that you made the installation to code is the perfect defense and would most likely stop any action against you immediately.

They will say "you turned the power on" and your action caused a voltage difference between the stove and the sink, shocking this poor basket case total moron, who did the right thing by hiring a licensed person to repair this electrical deficiency.

And I will refer to the code that I followed. I will also use this very thread as proof that I followed the code :thumbsup::lol:

Remember, people can "say" anything. They can "say" that the receptacle that you installed ultimately lead to someone getting shocked for so and so reason. The best defense that we have is to be able to say that we followed the code.