circuit tracer

[Strummed]

or use ours with the stipulation they are monetary responsible for it if they don't keep up with it.

Is that legal?

 

[hillbilly1]

Is that legal?

Yes, they sign an agreement when they receive the tracer. They do not have to take the tracer, but if they are caught working live, the excuse that they couldn't find the circuit will not keep them from being terminated.

 

[Strummed]

Yes, they sign an agreement when they receive the tracer. They do not have to take the tracer,

That just seems a bit odd. FedEx could say that using their trucks is voluntary and make their employees sign an agreement saying that the employee is solely responsible for them.

I always figured that an employee was only responsible for tools/equipment/etc. if you could prove that he was maliciously damaging or abusing it.

 

[hillbilly1]

That just seems a bit odd. FedEx could say that using their trucks is voluntary and make their employees sign an agreement saying that the employee is solely responsible for them.

I always figured that an employee was only responsible for tools/equipment/etc. if you could prove that he was maliciously damaging or abusing it.

That's comparing apples to oranges, the FedEx truck is a requirement of the job, you cannot deliver there packages out of your vehicle unless you are a subcontractor, then in that case you are liable for your own vehicle, not FedEx. We do not require tracers, but if your smart, you would take one to preserve your job, unless you are in an area where panel and circuit labeling is strictly enforced. If you turn off a customers server by accident doing the flip all breakers until you find it thing, they will ban you from the premises.

 

[Strummed]

That's comparing apples to oranges, the FedEx truck is a requirement of the job,

One can say the same about the tracer.

you cannot deliver there packages out of your vehicle unless you are a subcontractor,

But you can do other jobs as an employee without their vehicle.

We do not require tracers, but if your smart, you would take one to preserve your job,

The same way that FedEx can say that their employees don't need company vehicles, but if they want to drive they have to sign saying they are responsible.

You may not agree, but I still feel it is the same thing. A lawyer can word it out to arrive at the same end result, which is the employee getting the shaft.

 

[hillbilly1]

One can say the same about the tracer.

But you can do other jobs as an employee without their vehicle.

The same way that FedEx can say that their employees don't need company vehicles, but if they want to drive they have to sign saying they are responsible.

You may not agree, but I still feel it is the same thing. A lawyer can word it out to arrive at the same end result, which is the employee getting the shaft.

And the employer gets the shaft if they give the tracer to the employee, and they keep losing it or it gets "stolen" because they have no skin in the game. It works both ways, the employee can give the employer the shaft to, and unlike the US government, they cannot operate at a loss for long.

 

[Strummed]

And the employer gets the shaft if they give the tracer to the employee, and they keep losing it or it gets "stolen" because they have no skin in the game.

Exactly, that is part of the risk of being in business. The risk that the employer takes.

If an employee is abusing company tools, then it is time to take action against him. Whether it be a verbal warning, written reprimand, suspension, or termination. But I still don't think it's right (possibly not even legal) to charge the employee.

It works both ways, the employee can give the employer the shaft to,

That's the thing, I don't think it works both ways. There are certain protections that employees have, and rightly so.

and unlike the US government, they cannot operate at a loss for long.

As for operating at a loss, a good employer should be able to find the problematic employees and deal with them before they are able to make a significant change the the company's bottom dollar.

 

[hillbilly1]

Exactly, that is part of the risk of being in business. The risk that the employer takes.


That's the thing, I don't think it works both ways. There are certain protections that employees have, and rightly so. r.

Being part of business, why can't the employer reduce their risks?

Yes, employees do have more rights than the employer, you talk like it's easy to get rid of a bad employee, but its not. The only sure fire way not to have a court overturn a termination is a safety violation. One example is, there is a lot of bad teachers in NYC that they can't fire, so they pay them to sit in a room doing nothing because they can't leave them in the classroom.

 

[Strummed]

Being part of business, why can't the employer reduce their risks?

They can, and should. This is accomplished by taking the actions I listed above when you find an employee who may be abusing tools or equipment.

Yes, employees do have more rights than the employer, you talk like it's easy to get rid of a bad employee, but its not.

It is easy, I have done it many times. Even back when I was in the IBEW and working as a foreman, I never had a problem firing a man who deserved it.

Although most of the time it's easier, cleaner, and better for both sides to just lay them off.

The only sure fire way not to have a court overturn a termination is a safety violation.

Nothing is "for sure" in life, but it's a pretty good bet that if you terminate an employee for abusing company equipment there won't be any further problem. However,if that employee is the type of person to pursue charges against you, he will also fight against you holding him monetarily responsible for damaged tools.

One example is, there is a lot of bad teachers in NYC that they can't fire, so they pay them to sit in a room doing nothing because they can't leave them in the classroom.

Now THIS is apples to oranges...

You are bringing tenured union teachers into a discussion about merit shop electricians :lol:

 

[hillbilly1]

It is easy, I have done it many times. Even back when I was in the IBEW and working as a foreman, I never had a problem firing a man who deserved it. p

Fired them huh? I thought with the Union, they just go back on the bench?

 

[Strummed]

Fired them huh? I thought with the Union, they just go back on the bench?

They work for the contractor and can be fired like with any other job.

Their association with the union is a completely separate matter. Most locals will take action after the second termination for cause. Things are getting better than the old days, locals are realizing that problematic members are staining the entire union's reputation and are kicking them out instead of constantly protecting them.

Although I no longer have any association with the IBEW, I applaud them for doing the right thing.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Fired them huh? I thought with the Union, they just go back on the bench?

they do. and there, they sit.

every labor pool, regardless of what acronym it uses, has the "canasta club".
and after a while, they know which calls are ok for them to take, and which
will get them "spun", or their dispatch refused.

so, there they sit, working a couple months of the year. nobody is significantly
affected. they turn down dispatch calls until they find one that they can hang
with, and there you go.

when i was working out of a union hall, it was pretty simple. you had about
FOUR HOURS to prove you have your chit together, otherwise, there is a
reduction in force, by a factor of one, after three days....

i don't know a lot about the whole country, but on the left coast here,
union shops had to compete against contractors paying half the compensation
package, and make a profit.

that means that if you want to stay, you'd better haul ass. and at the
semi fossilized age of 57, i'll stack my production up against someone
half my age, and back it up with some folding money. and i have enough
ego and arrogance to make sure i don't lose.

so, why am i a one man band? simple. firstly, at this point in my life,
i figured i'd be running work for a shop somewhere.
but there isn't any work to speak of. and i like eating regularly.

secondly, if i'm gonna have to invest all this money in tools, 'cause
folks have your point of view that the employee should provide
all these spiffy doodle tools to limit the employers risk, what
do i need an employer for? the warm nurturing feeling that comes
with being told what tools to buy, or risk dismissal?

'sides, i buy better tools than almost anyone i ever worked for.
i hate working with broken down crap.

and when you find out what the work you are performing is being
sold for, well.... an employer is just another middleman....

 

[Flux]

I use a $500 dollar, 600 volt rated, battery powered, Greenlee unit that I got a customer to buy for me on a sideline job I did about 10 years ago, ask your new boss to work it into a bid just kidding. Though I have seen the new ideal units at a hospital I was working at a few months ago they look nice though the contractor also had an old greenlee that I prefer as it takes time to get used to a new tracer as they can be finicky. My general foreman said the ideal was better it looked nice even had a clamp to trace conduit. I would not pay more than twice the price of the greenlee for it, at an operational hospital these things are a must. Seriously if you need the job and work is slim right now buy a basic unit and if you need more ask the shop for it. I would never by a 500 dollar much less a 1000 plus unit for a company I worked for which honestly is what you would need for commercial service as you need a unit that can at least handle a 480 volt live circuit otherwise why trace it if it is already tripped I use tracers to turn a circuit off mainly.
All I use to provide was hand tools a basic meter fluke tpro and a drill if I was working nonunion. How they expect you to buy a $500 circuit tracer for nonunion pay is beyond me.
Fulthrotl that was classic I can't think of a better way to put it. I feel the exact same way that is why I started my own company recently. You forgot to mention you can do a better job because you don't have to float the project manager, owner, receptionist (owners wife), owners good for nothing son and brother on your three service calls or small tenet space your killing yourself to finish in a day, just to be laid off a month later because you’re not family or tied in somehow.
Why is it that none union shops in GA pay $10 less an hour while simultaneously making you supply your own power tools.
So far as union shops go here in GA (right to work state) you better be producing at full tilt or its time for the one man lay off like Fulthotl says you went through a 5 year apprenticeship you better know what you are doing at $29.00 an hour, it’s not so bad if your building a power house (though I don't see the POCO wide backs in any big hurry) but so far as commercial work its brutal, when I used to get home from a 8 hour day on a tenant build out with a union contractor I was done all I could do was eat, watch a hour of tv, and go to sleep that was my life. At least I was compensated well in the union though and honestly that is why most good electricians I know are union or have their own company.
When I went to work for the union I worked with professionals for the most part. Let’s be honest, anybody with half a brain and is legal is not going to work the rest of their life for $30,000 a year, minus benefits especially if they have a wife and kids.

 

[Flux]

I started nonunion and have worked 50/50

 

[billdozier 78]

Unless they live in the state of Florida. Where sadly the union does not really exist. So your stuck working with flipping hacks! :thumbsdown:

 

[hillbilly1]

I've been non-union for 33 years now, and have never drawn unemployment or have sat at home one day due to lack of work. I make comparable to Union scale, and I don't have to put up with their BS. (By the way, I even enjoy my job)

 

[Flux]

I know guys that work union that have never been laid off either and the work at places like Emory, Cox Communications, and ATT. You just have to be willing to start and end your career with one company or know somebody high up in the company. You also have to be willing to sacrifice and be there whenever they call but I am sure this is true both union and non. Here in GA its well balanced big jobs go union and small jobs go non.

 

[PetrosA]

I'm more of a gear head than a union/non-union debater, so I'm more interested in what tracers are best and opinions on who should provide it

I would expect an employee to have their own DMM w/clamp or clamp meter in the $125 or less category. There are a lot of choices available out there in that range. It should be TRMS, CAT III minimum, 400A minimum and do up to 10M Ohm minimum. Anything beyond that I would provide out of shop on an as-needed basis and would expect it to be returned in good working order. Damage from misuse or carelessness would be on the employee. If the employee showed a higher than average ability at troubleshooting with test gear, they'd get more to keep on their truck

It worries me that so many of the electricians I've met over the years didn't really have a clue what to do with their test gear other than check for voltage, and I'm not the brightest bulb myself. Is using a DMM or clamp meter something that's taught at school for electricians? (I learned as an apprentice, so I don't know.)

As a side note, I've noticed a few test equipment questions over the years and I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to have a sticky thread somewhere with recommendations for what works and what doesn't in a few categories like DMM, clamp meter, pencil tester, meggers, etc. It would probably be helpful to some out there who have to buy their first one, or those looking to upgrade. There's more stuff on the market now than ever before and it can be confusing.