Service Change or Upgrade?

[iwirehouses]

I have a customer who wanted me to change out their Federal Pacific panel before they add Central AC. When I got there, I see its 100amp wire with a 60 amp main. It's a standard old ranch with an elderly couple. Probably 1200 sq ft. The 240 v breakers currently in there are a 40 amp range, 30 amp dryer and 20 amp porch baseboard heat. Among 10 or so 110v circuits. And I'd be adding a 30 amp AC, possibly a even a 20. Should I feel bad about about just replacing the panel with nice Murray 100 Amp Main breaker. Or should I upgrade to 200 Amp and charge them an extra grand? They are old and would rather do whatever I recommend. I'd rather push them to put a 100 amp panel in and be out of there while taking it easy on they're wallet.

 

[John120/240]

I have a customer who wanted me to change out their Federal Pacific panel before they add Central AC. When I got there, I see its 100amp wire with a 60 amp main. It's a standard old ranch with an elderly couple. Probably 1200 sq ft. The 240 v breakers currently in there are a 40 amp range, 30 amp dryer and 20 amp porch baseboard heat. Among 10 or so 110v circuits. And I'd be adding a 30 amp AC, possibly a even a 20. Should I feel bad about about just replacing the panel with nice Murray 100 Amp Main breaker. Or should I upgrade to 200 Amp and charge them an extra grand? They are old and would rather do whatever I recommend. I'd rather push them to put a 100 amp panel in and be out of there while taking it easy on they're wallet.

Why would you feel bad about just putting in a 100 amp Murray panel with main breaker ? It would be an improvement over what is currently there. Do they need a 200 amp service ? Probably not. What ever route you take at least bring the grounding up to snuff.

 

[__dan]

Just by guessing, usually adding central AC or a hot tub will push the load calc up over a 100 amp to 150 or 200. If they had gas everything you may be OK with the 100. Electric DHW plus electric appliances would start adding up.

It becomes a question of what the AHJ will allow when you go for the permit and he's looking for a load calc. I certainly sympathize with saving old people their money. I think I would get some load calc data together and discuss with the AHJ first before teiilng the customer what is doable, ie, if the AHJ will let you keep the 100 amp service for the present time with the added AC load.

Just going from memory, there may be a load diversity factor where space heat and AC do not add up, you would take the larger of the two because they do not run at the same time. There are no demand reduction factors for heat or AC.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I don't think you even have existing 100 amp wire. Would not surprise me if that was so.
I have rarely seen an old service with with oversized wire.

 

[rt66electric]

200 amp panel/ 100 main

200 amp panel/ 100 main

I would vote for the 200 amp panel.
Put in a 200 amp panel buss. and with a 100 amp main breaker.

the major expense is the labor. the price differecence between a 100 amd 200 amp panel is marginal.

be sure to leave yourself open to be able to upgrade to a 200 amp meter,base and riser

 

[iwirehouses]

I like the idea of using a 200 amp panel with 100 amp breaker. Think I should get a 200 amp main lug and install a 100 amp in the bus bars? or buy a 200 amp main breaker and try to find a 100 amp main breaker that will bolt in?

 

[augie47]

There are a couple of items you didn't mention: What condition is the existing service, is an outside disconnect going to be required do to panel location and, if so, does you AHJ require changing the feeder to a four wire.

If the wiring is still in good condition and money is tight, I see no problem with you going back with a 100 amp panel, or as others have suggested a 200 amp with a 100 amp main.
In this area, it's rare to find an aged installation where the service conductors are not in need of replacement and when that;s the case most E/Cs upgrade.

 

[Cavie]

Do a load calc!

 

[guschash]

What do they need? Probably no more than what they have now. I would upgrade SER,meter, and panel. 100amps.

 

[kwired]

If they had a 60 amp main and it never tripped then an upgrade to 100 will likely be fine, of course OP did mention the existing is FPE...

 

[mjf]

Around here If I want to swap out the panel Im required to replace the SER if it's the old cloth sheathed style even if it's in pristene condition. Also not allowed to re-use the old A-frame meter housings. At that point, the difference in materials to upgrade to 200 amps is greatly reduced.

Half the time I just want to swap in a new panel I pull the meter and see the meter pan and/or guts are in rusted/corroded condition and warrant replacement anyway. Nice new 200 amp service is a plus if they may sell the house in the future too.

 

[peter d]

If they had a 60 amp main and it never tripped then an upgrade to 100 will likely be fine, of course OP did mention the existing is FPE...

I agree, I recently did a 100 amp service replacement (old cloth SE cable, meter socket and panel destroyed by water damage). It had electric hot water, a/c, and electric range. I didn't upgrade to 200 amps as it was unnecessary as the 100 amp service was adequate.

 

[north star]

( + + )

iwirehouses,

Others have given some very good advice, with safety
of the elderly couple and their property being paramount.
Gather your information [ i.e. - load calcs., ...condition of
the existing SE conductors, other ] and then determine
first, ...What is the [ min. ] code compliant install, ...then
if you want to heavily discount your work, that would be
a bonus to the couple......There is nothing in any code
anywhere that says that you can't give your work away!
[ see Acts 20:35, NIV ] :happyyes:

( + + )

 

[cowboyjwc]

If you do a load calc, do it based on what's there, not what you think should be there. Had a guy do one on an old apartment building that they want to make legal that went from 3 to six units and the POCO will only give them 400 amps. He said that all of the existing units have 50 amp panels in them and then shows me a 60 amp load calc.

He was just going down the list. 2 SABC, dryer, microwave, etc. Come to find out that none of that stuff is there.

 

[mjf]

If you do a load calc, do it based on what's there, not what you think should be there. Had a guy do one on an old apartment building that they want to make legal that went from 3 to six units and the POCO will only give them 400 amps. He said that all of the existing units have 50 amp panels in them and then shows me a 60 amp load calc.

He was just going down the list. 2 SABC, dryer, microwave, etc. Come to find out that none of that stuff is there.

Wow, how does one go about turning a 3 unit apt. building into a 6 unit apt. building without bringing it up to present day codes?

 

[GoldDigger]

Wow, how does one go about turning a 3 unit apt. building into a 6 unit apt. building without bringing it up to present day codes?

Or is he proposing to bring it up to the codes which were in effect at the time when it was converted without permits from 3 to 6?

 

[kwired]

If you do a load calc, do it based on what's there, not what you think should be there. Had a guy do one on an old apartment building that they want to make legal that went from 3 to six units and the POCO will only give them 400 amps. He said that all of the existing units have 50 amp panels in them and then shows me a 60 amp load calc.

He was just going down the list. 2 SABC, dryer, microwave, etc. Come to find out that none of that stuff is there.

The 2 SABC are supposed to be there. the dryer and microwave do not have to be. The microwave may very well be on a SABC.

The minimum feed for a dwelling unit is going to be 2 SABC's plus 3VA*sq ft. All other required outlets are dependent on if certain equipment exists. There will be a kitchen and it will have at least 2 SABC's. If there is no kitchen you have not met the definition of dwelling unit.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Or is he proposing to bring it up to the codes which were in effect at the time when it was converted without permits from 3 to 6?

This one.

The 2 SABC are supposed to be there. the dryer and microwave do not have to be. The microwave may very well be on a SABC.

The minimum feed for a dwelling unit is going to be 2 SABC's plus 3VA*sq ft. All other required outlets are dependent on if certain equipment exists. There will be a kitchen and it will have at least 2 SABC's. If there is no kitchen you have not met the definition of dwelling unit.

Well since they weren't supposed to have kitchens to begin with, and the kitchen consists of a range, sink and single counter, I don't think we even have two receptacles, but I haven't really looked at the job that close yet. And that's what I mean, he thought he had to have a range outlet, even though the range is gas.

 

[kwired]

This one.




Well since they weren't supposed to have kitchens to begin with, and the kitchen consists of a range, sink and single counter, I don't think we even have two receptacles, but I haven't really looked at the job that close yet. And that's what I mean, he thought he had to have a range outlet, even though the range is gas.

As in outlet for an electric range? Not an NEC requirement if there is no electric range. You could do your cooking on a wood burning stove as far as the NEC cares. At a bare minimum NEC only requires 2 SABC's for the kitchen, plus whatever lighting there is in the kitchen since fixed lighting is not allowed on the SABC.

 

[mwm1752]

Cavie & Kwired have it right -- do your homework prior to making decisions