Purpose of the neutral

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Skubie

Member
Location
Sacramento, CA
Hi all,
I'm a mechanical engineer and I'm getting involved in general construction, including power up to 3ph 480V, 1600A. No worries, I have guys who don't use their fingers as circuit testers - I let the designers and electricians decide how it gets done and let the inspectors make sure it's done right. But I've got a question that none of the IBEW guys have given a satisfying answer to: What is the neutral wire for in a circuit? Why do some circuits get by without a neutral? Why MUST others have a neutral? What happens when you bond a neutral? Why do you sometimes have a neutral AND a ground?
Thanks for any help. I absove you in advance for any disparaging comments about ME's.
 

Gregg Harris

Senior Member
Location
Virginia
Occupation
Electrical,HVAC, Technical Trainer
Hi all,
I'm a mechanical engineer and I'm getting involved in general construction, including power up to 3ph 480V, 1600A. No worries, I have guys who don't use their fingers as circuit testers - I let the designers and electricians decide how it gets done and let the inspectors make sure it's done right. But I've got a question that none of the IBEW guys have given a satisfying answer to: What is the neutral wire for in a circuit? Why do some circuits get by without a neutral? Why MUST others have a neutral? What happens when you bond a neutral? Why do you sometimes have a neutral AND a ground?
Thanks for any help. I absove you in advance for any disparaging comments about ME's.

Depending on what type of end use is required will determine whether or not a neutral is required. in a residential application or commercial / industrial where the load is 120 volts a neutral is required to return the current to is source. Three phase systems if not serving 120 volt loads will not require a neutral such as a roof top unit.
An electrical circuit containing one hot conductor and a neutral does not require a third "ground" conductor to "function".

Your ground can be a conductor or conduit for the purpose of creating aground fault current path.

Ground-Fault Current Path. An electrically conductive path from the point of a ground fault on a wiring system through normally non?current-carrying conductors, equipment, or the earth to the electrical supply source.


Neutral Conductor. The conductor connected to the neutral point of a system that is intended to carry current under normal conditions.
Neutral Point. The common point on a wye-connection in a polyphase system or midpoint on a single-phase, 3-wire system, or midpoint of a single-phase portion of a 3-phase delta system, or a midpoint of a 3-wire, direct-current system.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
The way I see it, the neutral is simply a tap point in the transformer winding to give you another voltage selection. In some cases, for safety, the Code or manufacturers limit the operating voltages to values where having a neutral is practical.
Some industrial (and other) facilities operate without a neutral present. If all your equipmemt was rated 480volt or 240 volt, there might be no need for the voltages established by a neutral.
There are "ungrounded" systems, but most systems have a ground reference. When the neutral is present, it is used as your ground reference. (That's where the term. neutral bond arises)
For safety, electrical equipment is bonded together and connected to earth (grounded). Almost all equipment is required to be grounded so you will almost always have a grounding conductor be it a wire or a metallic raceway. This is to keep you from having a potential (voltage) between two pieces of equipment or between equipment and earth or conductive objets (building steel, etc).
You only have a neutral conductor present if the equipment is designed for the voltage provided by the neutral (120v, 277v, etc.)
 

ZZDoug

Member
Location
North Dakota
I tend to think of the neutral as a return wire, so unlike hot conductors it has no electrical potential. As a non engineer myself, I've never been quite sure why it has no potential since it is connected to the transformer windings. The ground wire, since it is connected to the neutral at the service, is a return path used if there is a ground fault so that the overcurrent protector will trip.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
I tend to think of the neutral as a return wire, so unlike hot conductors it has no electrical potential. As a non engineer myself, I've never been quite sure why it has no potential since it is connected to the transformer windings. The ground wire, since it is connected to the neutral at the service, is a return path used if there is a ground fault so that the overcurrent protector will trip.
FWIW, a single point on any electrical system has no potential... and that applies to both grounded (e.g. neutral) and ungrounded (hot) conductors. Potential requires two points. For example, you will not measure any [substantial] voltage if you only connect one lead of a standard voltmeter and isolate the other lead. There would be no pathway for electrical current.

A grounded neutral is said to have no potential because it is typically electrically bonded to grounded, not-intended-to-carry-normal-current parts and earthed electrodes, thereby reducing potential between the neutral and these other pathways, including any persons. With pathways not being ideal conductors, potential will still be present itself at various locations... but potential is [reasonably] minimized.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Hi all,
I'm a mechanical engineer and I'm getting involved in general construction, including power up to 3ph 480V, 1600A. No worries, I have guys who don't use their fingers as circuit testers - I let the designers and electricians decide how it gets done and let the inspectors make sure it's done right. But I've got a question that none of the IBEW guys have given a satisfying answer to: What is the neutral wire for in a circuit? Why do some circuits get by without a neutral? Why MUST others have a neutral? What happens when you bond a neutral? Why do you sometimes have a neutral AND a ground?
Thanks for any help. I absove you in advance for any disparaging comments about ME's.
For balanced loads on split or three phase supplies, a neutral is sometimes not required and even when it is there it (ideally) does not carry any current. For 120V loads, however, the neutral is necessary to complete the circuit and carries the same amount of current as the hot conductor. Ground wires are never supposed to carry any current except when something goes wrong, but they are always required by code whether there is a neutral or not.
 

xformer

Senior Member
Location
Dallas, Tx
Occupation
Master Electrician
Hi all,
I'm a mechanical engineer and I'm getting involved in general construction, including power up to 3ph 480V, 1600A. No worries, I have guys who don't use their fingers as circuit testers - I let the designers and electricians decide how it gets done and let the inspectors make sure it's done right. But I've got a question that none of the IBEW guys have given a satisfying answer to: What is the neutral wire for in a circuit? Why do some circuits get by without a neutral? Why MUST others have a neutral? What happens when you bond a neutral? Why do you sometimes have a neutral AND a ground?
Thanks for any help. I absove you in advance for any disparaging comments about ME's.

Well, Skubie...
welcome to the forum. I am a IBEW guy. I will answer your questions. Let me know if these answers satisfy you. I am always up for discussion on electrical topics.. :) All of these answers are IMHO.. :)
1. The neutral wire for a circuit is a conductor that allows current to flow back to the source. As we know with out a complete path there is no current flow. The Neutral for a circuit can be a Grounded conductor which is commonly called a (neutral) or as I explain to people an ungrounded conductor.
2. Some circuits get by without a neutral because a different energized conductor acts as a neutral.
3. Bonding a Neutral causes the Neutral to be at the same Potential as the earth. It creates a reference point to measure other voltages from as well as stabilize voltages through out a system.
4. A Ground is usually required for safety. When an ungrounded conductor makes accidental contact with any (usually metal) object, the ground conductor impedance facilitates the opening of the overcurrent protective device supplying the circuit.

I hope that this answers your questions...
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
As others have pointed some of it out, neutral, ground, grounded, grounding are all different terminologies as used in the NEC and throughout the trade. They are not all the same thing. There are some similarities and in some cases two of those terms can be the same or very close to the same, but other cases they can be far from the same.

A place to start is to understand basic electrical theory a little better, and to just read the art 100 definitions of each of those words and apply that definition to basic electrical theory concepts.

Neutral(generally) is simply a point on a system that is (usually) equal in potential to other points on the system. Like the mid point of a single winding, or the common point of a wye connected set of windings.

Neutral becomes a "grounded neutral" when we intentionally connect the neutral point to earth, metal frames of equipment, etc.

A system that has no "neutral" can still have another point intentionally grounded.

A system that has a neutral can have another point besides the neutral grounded and things will work just fine, but NEC generally requires the neutral conductor to be the conductor that is grounded if a neutral conductor exists in the system.

If you are installing a separately derived system, you often have to connect a bonding jumper to the frame of that system to ground it. It usually connects to a neutral if the system has a neutral, but you could connect it to any system conductor and ground that conductor. All that will change is which conductor has a zero volts reference to ground.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
I want to jump in here and add particularly to Augie and kwired.

Do a little research on transformers, particularly single phase center tapped, and 3 phase 4 wire Wye connected transformers. While doing this remember that for all intents and purposes, electricity "flows" similar to a liquid in a closed system. The winding of the transformer is part of that closed system. For this, don't worry at all about the primary side, for the time being. Single phase is easier to understand first. Follow one electron.

If your load (equipment) is 240 volts, the electron starts at whatever point inside the transformer coil you want. It leaves along a wire, runs along the wire, runs through the motor, causing it to operate and then runs along the other wire back to the coil, then through the coil to the original start spot.

If your load is 120V similar to the above, except one of the wires is the neutral. I don't like to say go and return, because the direction changes 60 times a second. As you can see, the path to ground is a dead end, in either of the above scenarios, so the electron WILL NOT flow to ground.

Now is gets complicated. If you have both "hots" going out, with a shared neutral coming back, any time only one load is on, the 2nd scenario above works, but when you turn on the second load, now, as electron flow, basically they will travel, along a wire, through one load, along the neutral, until the come to the common joint, where the neutrals for each load join together. At that point, think of it like as many electrons as the second load will allow to pass (in other words, the amount of amperage) will flow, back up the neutral wire to the second load, and then along the hot wire, back to the transformer coil. Only the extra electrons, that the second load can't use will flow back to the transformer on the neutral. Note that the 1st load is the one the draws more current (amperage). Now you know why one of the terms for the neutral is the common.

Bonding the neutral to ground. What that does is for safety 100% period. As I pointed out, in all of the above scenarios, any electron trying to run to ground can only do it on the bonding wire, and that is a dead end. When and if, a fault allows the electrons to run to a metal case of equipment, or a water pipe, instead of just sitting there, waiting, to zap the unsuspecting victim, it will instead run back to the transformer coil along the grounding system. Basically, the path is designed to be big enough that the current will cause the breaker to trip, negating the danger. The other part of this is that the possibility of a human contact the full voltage of the system (Hot to hot, or direct short) is far more unlikely without two faults. In an ungrounded system, it basically takes two ground faults to trip a breaker, but all the time that the single fault is out there, the potential for a person to become the second fault is really high, because you can't "see" the first fault. Military ships, operate on ungrounded systems, because reliability is more important than human life. They have sensors that sense the first fault, but the systems will still operate until the crew ahs time to fix the fault, which may not be in the middle of a conflict.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
A system that has a neutral can have another point besides the neutral grounded and things will work just fine, but NEC generally requires the neutral conductor to be the conductor that is grounded if a neutral conductor exists in the system.
The first time I encountered a 480V 3 phase corner grounded system, it turned my head around that a "hot" wire can also be the ground. Weird but true.
 

Flux

Member
Location
Atlanta GA
Well I am an ex IBEW man and if they went through the apprenticeship they should be able to tell you.
Basically the neutral is the center tap of your transformer 480/277 volt transformer if you look at a diagram
for a wye transformer it would probably be very helpful (Google images maybe) you need to understand
how a transformer works to understand a neutral.

Specifically transformer windings in a wye configuration think of a (Y) the three legs are transformer coils/windings
the center is where you tap your ground which chops your voltage or distance from the end of one leg to the end of the
other legs in half though you divide 1.73 due to electrical theory.

You don?t even need to have a neutral I know a X-ray room I did recently that had a electrical panel with a
integrated transformer to get 120 volts out of a 208 volt feed with no neutral to eliminate harmonics
the transformer kicked out 120 volts phase to phase. Hospitals have stupid money for X-ray machines
at $7,000 a x-ray do the math.

No easy explanations for neutrals you have to understand how transformers work and that takes a while
to wrap your head around but hopefully this points you in the right direction:thumbsup:.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Specifically transformer windings in a wye configuration think of a (Y) the three legs are transformer coils/windings
the center is where you tap your ground which chops your voltage or distance from the end of one leg to the end of the
other legs in half though you divide 1.73 due to electrical theory.

The voltage or distance from end of one leg to end of other is not chopped in half, it actually is divided by 1.73.

If you draw a triangle to represent this you will have two sides of the triangle 277 units long and the third side will be 480 units long, the widest angle of this triangle will be 120 degrees just like the phase angle of the circuit is 120 degrees from phase to phase.
 

fmtjfw

Senior Member
When rats wore clothes and giants walked the earth

When rats wore clothes and giants walked the earth

Hi all,
I'm a mechanical engineer and I'm getting involved in general construction, including power up to 3ph 480V, 1600A. No worries, I have guys who don't use their fingers as circuit testers - I let the designers and electricians decide how it gets done and let the inspectors make sure it's done right. But I've got a question that none of the IBEW guys have given a satisfying answer to: What is the neutral wire for in a circuit? Why do some circuits get by without a neutral? Why MUST others have a neutral? What happens when you bond a neutral? Why do you sometimes have a neutral AND a ground?
Thanks for any help. I absove you in advance for any disparaging comments about ME's.

When Tom Edison was inventing the electric light and designing the distribution system for the DC power, he and I discussed the cost of copper and he did some experiments and discovered that he could reduce the amount he needed by connecting two generators in series with the positive of one to the negative of the other. He connected the wire that tied the two generators together to ground. This meant that the maximum voltage to ground was the voltage of a single generator. (If he had connected the free end of one of the generators to ground, the voltage would have been the sum of the voltages of the two generators.) By keeping the voltage to ground at a minimum, he reduced the amount of that sticky black stuff he used for insulation (maybe gutta-percha or some other stuff).

Now here comes the magic. If he could keep the load nearly balanced on each hot wire (negative to "neutral" for the first generator and "neutral" to positive for the second) then the percentage voltage drop on the two circuits went down. As an example, if you send 100 amps down a wire and back another wire at 130 volts, you get x percent voltage drop. If you construct a circuit as described above with three wires and a balanced load, you are effectively sending 100 amps at 260 volts and you get x/2 percent voltage drop. The neutral just serves to balance loads along shorter lengths than the full circuit length.

That is the real story as to how and why the neutral was invented.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
When Tom Edison was inventing the electric light and designing the distribution system for the DC power, he and I discussed the cost of copper and he did some experiments and discovered that he could reduce the amount he needed by connecting two generators in series with the positive of one to the negative of the other. He connected the wire that tied the two generators together to ground. This meant that the maximum voltage to ground was the voltage of a single generator. (If he had connected the free end of one of the generators to ground, the voltage would have been the sum of the voltages of the two generators.) By keeping the voltage to ground at a minimum, he reduced the amount of that sticky black stuff he used for insulation (maybe gutta-percha or some other stuff).

Now here comes the magic. If he could keep the load nearly balanced on each hot wire (negative to "neutral" for the first generator and "neutral" to positive for the second) then the percentage voltage drop on the two circuits went down. As an example, if you send 100 amps down a wire and back another wire at 130 volts, you get x percent voltage drop. If you construct a circuit as described above with three wires and a balanced load, you are effectively sending 100 amps at 260 volts and you get x/2 percent voltage drop. The neutral just serves to balance loads along shorter lengths than the full circuit length.

That is the real story as to how and why the neutral was invented.

Have to believe that one, after all you said you were there:)
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
130312-0801 EDT

Look at the Wiki discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral . Without an electrical background it may still be confusing, but I think a rather concise description is provided.

I don't know the origin of the word neutral relative to electrical wiring, but it does not simply mean grounded, although it may have started from that perspective. In the original Edison distribution system there were three wires. A plus 110, a minus 110, and a neutral (and neutral was grounded). This was done as a means to reduce the amount of copper wire, and keep the potential of any wires not more than 110 V above earth.

110 V as a practical voltage was probably determined by the ability to make an incandescent lamp work and provide a reasonable life. Edison realized that a practical electrical distribution system required a high voltage, high resistance, and parallel operation of the loads.

With an approximately balanced load on a +110_0_-110 system one could supply about twice the load power with 2/3 the copper (assuming each current carrying conductor in the 3 wire system was the same size) as in a 2 wire 110 V only system.

I looked for an early reference on the use of the 3 wire distribution and did not quickly find something. But did find that the early Edison bulbs were in the 100 ohm range (above 100 ohms cold, and below hot), and 80 to 90 V was available at Menlo Park in 1878-79.

The word neutral in other electrical areas would imply no net charge, such as a neutron as distinguished from an electron or proton. Thus, the early use of the word neutral for the 3rd wire may have derived from that wire being grounded and there being little potential difference between the neutral and earth. I don't believe it would have related to the amount of current flowing in the neutral. Also one might consider that it is the mid point of the two hot wires, and thus an average voltage of zero of the two outer wires relative to it.

Today's use of the word does not seem to require grounding of the neutral.

I would have to do more research to get a better idea of the evolution of the use of the word neutral.

From a replica carbon filament lamp I have some values are:
75 W 120 V 192 ohms
50 W 100 V 200 ohms
15 W 60 V 240 ohms

.
 
Last edited:

Flux

Member
Location
Atlanta GA
The voltage or distance from end of one leg to end of other is not chopped in half, it actually is divided by 1.73.
If you draw a triangle to represent this you will have two sides of the triangle 277 units long and the third side will be 480 units long, the widest angle of this triangle will be 120 degrees just like the phase angle of the circuit is 120 degrees from phase to phase.


kwired that is what I had said you divide 1.73 and if it was a triangle it would be a delta symbol and you would have a high leg the (Y) is just a symbol for a wye transformer the actual windings look totally different more like this (III) unless the POCO is using can transformers but I was just trying to simplify it which I am starting to realize is pretty though.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
kwired that is what I had said you divide 1.73 and if it was a triangle it would be a delta symbol and you would have a high leg the (Y) is just a symbol for a wye transformer the actual windings look totally different more like this (III) unless the POCO is using can transformers but I was just trying to simplify it which I am starting to realize is pretty though.

what you originally said:
Specifically transformer windings in a wye configuration think of a (Y) the three legs are transformer coils/windings
the center is where you tap your ground which chops your voltage or distance from the end of one leg to the end of the
other legs in half though you divide 1.73 due to electrical theory.

You can't have both half and a factor of 1.73. Half is what you have with a single phase winding with a mid point tap. With three phase it is not halfway to the common, it is vectorally (is that a word?) the center but at a factor of 1.73 of the total distances not half.

I am well aware of the difference between delta and wye.

The triangle I was talking about was only a triangle representing voltages on one 120 degree sector of a wye setup, not an actual representation of windings. The angles of the triangle would have all been 60 degrees for a delta winding representation.
 

Flux

Member
Location
Atlanta GA
You win kwired. I was trying to explain in laymen terms for original poster. I did say (though you divide 1.73) not and you divide.
I understand the 120 degrees out of phase sine wave I think you are speaking of which is more in line with generators and motors to my understanding unless it is a newfangled harmonic reducing transformer.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
You win kwired. I was trying to explain in laymen terms for original poster. I did say (though you divide 1.73) not and you divide.
I understand the 120 degrees out of phase sine wave I think you are speaking of which is more in line with generators and motors to my understanding unless it is a newfangled harmonic reducing transformer.

The sine waves are 120 degrees out of phase because that is how they are generated. This phase angle doesn't disappear just because you are not talking about the generator anymore. Supply all resistive loads and you may not care as much about phase angles but they are still there.

If trying to simplify to laymens terms don't bring three phase into the conversation, you have to get the concepts with simpler circuits first.
 
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