Service Change or Upgrade?

[cowboyjwc]

As in outlet for an electric range? Not an NEC requirement if there is no electric range. You could do your cooking on a wood burning stove as far as the NEC cares. At a bare minimum NEC only requires 2 SABC's for the kitchen, plus whatever lighting there is in the kitchen since fixed lighting is not allowed on the SABC.

I know that and you know that, but apparently the engineer didn't know that.

My point is, if you have a 1950's house with only two receptacles in each bedroom and "maybe" two SABC in the kitchen, and the laundry is just coming off one of the garage receptacles, then don't try to do a load calc based on todays codes and requirements. If a 100 amp panel has been running the house or over 60 years, I don't think that it would require a 200 amp upgrade.

 

[growler]

I have a customer who wanted me to change out their Federal Pacific panel before they add Central AC. When I got there, I see its 100amp wire with a 60 amp main. It's a standard old ranch with an elderly couple. Probably 1200 sq ft. The 240 v breakers currently in there are a 40 amp range, 30 amp dryer and 20 amp porch baseboard heat. Among 10 or so 110v circuits. And I'd be adding a 30 amp AC, possibly a even a 20. Should I feel bad about about just replacing the panel with nice Murray 100 Amp Main breaker. Or should I upgrade to 200 Amp and charge them an extra grand? They are old and would rather do whatever I recommend. I'd rather push them to put a 100 amp panel in and be out of there while taking it easy on they're wallet.

My point is, if you have a 1950's house with only two receptacles in each bedroom and "maybe" two SABC in the kitchen, and the laundry is just coming off one of the garage receptacles, then don't try to do a load calc based on todays codes and requirements. If a 100 amp panel has been running the house or over 60 years, I don't think that it would require a 200 amp upgrade.

I would do a load calculation useing todays codes and standards. Why?

The number of receptacles in the bedroom makes no difference at all. What has changed since 1950 is the number of appliances used by the homeowner. People don't use more or less power depending on the number of receptacles available. With a small house like this there won't be much of a general lighting load anyway.

What has really changed since 1950 is the number of major appliances that are available to the consumer. If these people are useing these appliances they should be counted and let the chips(numbers) fall where they will.


With a little house like this a 100 amp service is probably enough but if it is I will be able to verify this with a load calculation. If they have a heat pump, hot tub and and an electric tankless water heater then things may need to be up-graded.


With the number of 240V circuits in this panel I doubt if it's a 60 Amp service, probably a 100 amp split buss. This would explain the larger service cable.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Well the OP said that they would do what ever he recomended and he was trying to be easy on their wallet. I've never put in less than a 200 amp service on an upgrade, especially on a house with a large lot and no pool or AC, amount of work is the same, it just a few bucks more for material. Who know's what the future holds. But if money is an issue and they don't need to upgrade, then I don't see any reason to do one.

 

[kwired]

I know that and you know that, but apparently the engineer didn't know that.

My point is, if you have a 1950's house with only two receptacles in each bedroom and "maybe" two SABC in the kitchen, and the laundry is just coming off one of the garage receptacles, then don't try to do a load calc based on todays codes and requirements. If a 100 amp panel has been running the house or over 60 years, I don't think that it would require a 200 amp upgrade.

Even though there is only two receptacles in the bedrooms, and laundry is on with the garage, the actual load doesn't change. You don't calculate the bedrooms per outlet, you calculate by square feet. Even though the laundry is on with garage, I would throw in 1500 VA for laundry regardless. Maybe someday is gets its own circuit. The load on the service is no different either way, you still supply the laundry somehow. So for most part you have SABC's, laundry, 3 VA per square foot, and add any fixed appliances/utilization equipment. Even if the house only has 4 existing 120 volt circuits.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Even though there is only two receptacles in the bedrooms, and laundry is on with the garage, the actual load doesn't change. You don't calculate the bedrooms per outlet, you calculate by square feet. Even though the laundry is on with garage, I would throw in 1500 VA for laundry regardless. Maybe someday is gets its own circuit. The load on the service is no different either way, you still supply the laundry somehow. So for most part you have SABC's, laundry, 3 VA per square foot, and add any fixed appliances/utilization equipment. Even if the house only has 4 existing 120 volt circuits.

I'm well aware of how a load is calced, But since I don't happen to have a 1950's code book here I'm not sure how it was calced back then. Unless you have one.

 

[jap]

I know that and you know that, but apparently the engineer didn't know that.

My point is, if you have a 1950's house with only two receptacles in each bedroom and "maybe" two SABC in the kitchen, and the laundry is just coming off one of the garage receptacles, then don't try to do a load calc based on todays codes and requirements. If a 100 amp panel has been running the house or over 60 years, I don't think that it would require a 200 amp upgrade.

I dont think it needs a 200a upgrade either, and if the calculations came up less, do you think they would
install a downgrade?

 

[kwired]

I dont think it needs a 200a upgrade either, and if the calculations came up less, do you think they would
install a downgrade?

I have a school that I sometimes do work for. They have 2000 amp gear installed as service equipment. Actual load supplied - maybe only 600 amps max., POCO transformer not certain just what it is but probably only around 600 amps capacity. Should I try to convince them they need a downgrade?

 

[jap]

No, but the relationship between the amount of power available and the amount of power actually used at
your school probably runs in pretty close relationship with this 1950's House.

 

[jap]

No, but the relationship between the amount of power available and the amount of power actually used at
your school probably runs in pretty close relationship with this 1950's House.

With this being said, If I was going to do an upgrade and was on the fence about it, I'd go ahead and bump it to a 200a Service wether they actually needed it right now or not and try to cut them some slack in other
areas.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I have a school that I sometimes do work for. They have 2000 amp gear installed as service equipment. Actual load supplied - maybe only 600 amps max., POCO transformer not certain just what it is but probably only around 600 amps capacity. Should I try to convince them they need a downgrade?

But I bet if they were only using 600 amps and you tried the convince them that they needed a 2000 amp service, they would throw you out of their office. $$$$$$$

 

[jap]

The issue with this whole scenario is that the customer does'nt know what they need.
That's why they call you.
You need to do what's fair to the customer and what will satisfy your reputation.
The only thing worse than installing a 200 Amp service where you gave this older couple the best deal you
possibly could would be to install a new service that didnt work out and they look at you down the road
and wonder why you didnt install what was needed in the first place.

Be up front with them, generally everything will work out.

Just because they're older doesnt mean they won't understand.

 

[growler]

I'm well aware of how a load is calced, But since I don't happen to have a 1950's code book here I'm not sure how it was calced back then. Unless you have one.

Why would you need a 1950's code book? We don't live in the 50's.

You use the code adopted and do a calculation on this little house and it's probably going to show that a mimimum service of 70-80 amps is required and the code list a 100 as being the smallest new service allowed.

The OP doesn't have to "feel bad" about putting in a 100 amp panel because that is all that's reqired. It's no longer a matter of opinion based on the age of the house or the age of the owner or even based on their ability to pay. You have a calculation based on the actual needs of the customer and they can feel confident and you can feel confident in what's being done.

 

[kwired]

The issue with this whole scenario is that the customer does'nt know what they need.
That's why they call you.
You need to do what's fair to the customer and what will satisfy your reputation.
The only thing worse than installing a 200 Amp service where you gave this older couple the best deal you
possibly could would be to install a new service that didnt work out and they look at you down the road
and wonder why you didnt install what was needed in the first place.

Be up front with them, generally everything will work out.

Just because they're older doesnt mean they won't understand.

I have had a fair number of customers/potential customers that were pretty sure they knew what they needed and mostly demanded I do it their way. Kind of makes you want to ask them if you know so much why did you call me? If I can't convince them they are wrong, I kindly tell them I can not fit their work into my schedule any time soon. Sometimes that still doesn't get rid of them though

 

[jap]

I have had a fair number of customers/potential customers that were pretty sure they knew what they needed and mostly demanded I do it their way. Kind of makes you want to ask them if you know so much why did you call me? If I can't convince them they are wrong, I kindly tell them I can not fit their work into my schedule any time soon. Sometimes that still doesn't get rid of them though

I dont think that's the case here.
It seems this older couple wanted to install central heat and air in thier house.
The HVAC guy probably told them they needed to call an electrician for the electrical since it was an old
house with an old panel so thats what they did.

I dont try to convince my customers or potential customers they're wrong.
I kindly tell them if you want it done wrong you called the wrong person.

 

[kwired]

I dont think that's the case here.
It seems this older couple wanted to install central heat and air in thier house.
The HVAC guy probably told them they needed to call an electrician for the electrical since it was an old
house with an old panel so thats what they did.

I dont try to convince my customers or potential customers they're wrong.
I kindly tell them if you want it done wrong you called the wrong person.

I understand, most of my customers realize I am the professional and trust what I have to say. Those that think they know it all are the ones you just want to avoid, as your schooling and experience apparently means nothing to them, and you have to ask why was I called in the first place, since this guy already has all the answers why can't he just do it himself?

 

[jap]

I understand, most of my customers realize I am the professional and trust what I have to say. Those that think they know it all are the ones you just want to avoid, as your schooling and experience apparently means nothing to them, and you have to ask why was I called in the first place, since this guy already has all the answers why can't he just do it himself?

That's one of the perks of working for yourself, you get to choose your battles.
I got sent out to a job when I was working for the other guy, showed up, and the owner had a hole hawg in
his hand and was boring holes faster than I could think straight.
The first words out of his mouth was, I used to do electrical work a long time ago, I cant do this on my own
and get an inspection or I would, and I want to get you out of here as soon as I can cause I know the meters
running.

I trudged through that day but all I wanted to do was grab a bullhorn and yell "Go boy Go" into his
ears while he was frantically running from one end of the house to the other drilling holes.