Class 2 wiring support

[sparky#2]

Recently had an inspection and observed that Class 2 wiring was tie-wrapped to refrigerant lines for support. My understanding from the NEC Article 725.24 is that all Class 1, Class 2, and Class 3 cables and conductors should be supported by the building structure.
The mechanical contractor argues that this is "done all the time" and never gets questioned.
Wondering what others may be seeing out there and are there other Code references to either back up my interpretation or correct me?
Thanks

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Is this thermostat wire for an a/c unit?

 

[sparky#2]

Is this thermostat wire for an a/c unit?

yes it is

 

[petersonra]

Recently had an inspection and observed that Class 2 wiring was tie-wrapped to refrigerant lines for support. My understanding from the NEC Article 725.24 is that all Class 1, Class 2, and Class 3 cables and conductors should be supported by the building structure.
The mechanical contractor argues that this is "done all the time" and never gets questioned.
Wondering what others may be seeing out there and are there other Code references to either back up my interpretation or correct me?
Thanks

I took a look. That is not what it says. read it carefully.

 

[sparky#2]

I took a look. That is not what it says. read it carefully.

NEC 2011, Article 725.24 says, "Class 1, Class 2, and Class 3 circuits shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner. Cables and conductors installed exposed on the surface of ceilings and sidewalls shall be supported by the building structure in such a manner that the cable will not be damaged by normal building use. Such cables shall be supported by straps, staples, hangers, cable ties, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable. The installation shall also comply with 300.4(D)."

The commentary indicates that "Cable must be attached to or supported by the structure by cable ties, straps, hangers, and the like."


What am I missing?

 

[GoldDigger]

NEC 2011, Article 725.24 says, "Class 1, Class 2, and Class 3 circuits shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner. Cables and conductors installed exposed on the surface of ceilings and sidewalls shall be supported by the building structure in such a manner that the cable will not be damaged by normal building use. Such cables shall be supported by straps, staples, hangers, cable ties, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable. The installation shall also comply with 300.4(D)."
The commentary indicates that "Cable must be attached to or supported by the structure by cable ties, straps, hangers, and the like."
What am I missing?

I would ask:
If it is attached to the refrigerant line, is the wire in fact exposed on the surface?
Is it any more subject to damage during normal building use than if it were attached to the building structure directly?

 

[mike1061]

Well, I'm not quoting the code book, but that's the only way I've ever seen the wires installed.
Thanks
Mike

 

[Gregg Harris]

Recently had an inspection and observed that Class 2 wiring was tie-wrapped to refrigerant lines for support. My understanding from the NEC Article 725.24 is that all Class 1, Class 2, and Class 3 cables and conductors should be supported by the building structure.
The mechanical contractor argues that this is "done all the time" and never gets questioned.
Wondering what others may be seeing out there and are there other Code references to either back up my interpretation or correct me?
Thanks

This is done throughout the industry on a daily basis and follows the same intent as 300.11 (B) (2)
(B) Raceways Used as Means of Support. Raceways shall be used only as a means of support for other raceways, cables, or nonelectrical equipment under any of the following conditions:

1. Where the raceway or means of support is identified for the purpose
2. Where the raceway contains power supply conductors for electrically controlled equipment and is used to support Class 2 circuit conductors or cables that are solely for the purpose of connection to the equipment control circuits

 

[Aleman]

This is done throughout the industry on a daily basis and follows the same intent as 300.11 (B) (2)
(B) Raceways Used as Means of Support. Raceways shall be used only as a means of support for other raceways, cables, or nonelectrical equipment under any of the following conditions:

1. Where the raceway or means of support is identified for the purpose
2. Where the raceway contains power supply conductors for electrically controlled equipment and is used to support Class 2 circuit conductors or cables that are solely for the purpose of connection to the equipment control circuits

Not to hijack this thread but I have a related question. Say I was to run a EMT 1/2 raceway and used existing stainless steel piping for support. The piping is not electrical and is welded on either end. The means of support is back to back cowboy clamps. I seem to recall reading somewhere that this is not legal but I can't find anything that says it isn't.

For the orig poster, the practice you refer to seems to be commonplace. They tie that stuff to anything.

 

[Gregg Harris]

Not to hijack this thread but I have a related question. Say I was to run a EMT 1/2 raceway and used existing stainless steel piping for support. The piping is not electrical and is welded on either end. The means of support is back to back cowboy clamps. I seem to recall reading somewhere that this is not legal but I can't find anything that says it isn't.

For the orig poster, the practice you refer to seems to be commonplace. They tie that stuff to anything.

What is the purpose of the existing SS pipe used for or is it the support means for the conduit?

 

[Aleman]

What is the purpose of the existing SS pipe used for or is it the support means for the conduit?

The pipe is process piping, 2". It is used to move fluids from point A to point B. There are no unions or any serviceable points on the piping.
Don't know if that makes a diff, but it would take a torch or saws to remove it.

 

[Gregg Harris]

The pipe is process piping, 2". It is used to move fluids from point A to point B. There are no unions or any serviceable points on the piping.
Don't know if that makes a diff, but it would take a torch or saws to remove it.

It can not be used for support of the electrical conduit.

 

[kwired]

We know that our electrical raceways can not support other systems. It may not be in the NEC but could be in other codes that say a gas pipe can not support other systems.

Often there is exceptions to items that are functionally associated. I have always secured condensing unit control cable to the refrigerant lines - they are part of same system. To run the control cable secured to an unassociated water pipe just doesn't make as much sense, even if it doesn't seem to present any hazards. If the water pipe is removed, what happens to the control cable? If the refrigerant line is removed chances are the control cable isn't needed anymore either.

 

[Aleman]

It can not be used for support of the electrical conduit.

I know you are most likely correct, but what article spells it out?

 

[ActionDave]

Not to hijack this thread but I have a related question. Say I was to run a EMT 1/2 raceway and used existing stainless steel piping for support. The piping is not electrical and is welded on either end. The means of support is back to back cowboy clamps. I seem to recall reading somewhere that this is not legal but I can't find anything that says it isn't....

If you use the cowboys front to front then it is legal. The clamps and bolts are the support, not the piping.

There was a thread on this here not long ago.

 

[Aleman]

If you use the cowboys front to front then it is legal. The clamps and bolts are the support, not the piping.

There was a thread on this here not long ago.

So I can put a cowboy on a 2" pipe, bolt and nut that clamp to another cowboy on which hangs my 1/2 EMT. And the clamp itself is the support? I am ok with that. Besides I done did it.
These little technicalities make electricians seem a bit lawyerish

 

[kwired]

If you use the cowboys front to front then it is legal. The clamps and bolts are the support, not the piping.

There was a thread on this here not long ago.

I will agree under one condition, one of the cowboys has to also be bolted to some supporting structure, otherwise the pipes are still supporting the cowboys instead of the cowboys supporting the pipes.