LED's of Similar Output to T12

[jmellc]

Looking at a job for a church. They have cove lighting on 2 long walls. 8' T12 strips. They want to replace with LED lighting of a similar output.

I installed some LED tube lights for 1 customer that he really liked. I didn't care for them, thought they were cheaply made, rather flimsy. I am searching for any other LED tubes out there, haven't seen much yet. Also wondering about LED rope lights.

Have any of you done a similar upgrade? Thanks for any feedback on it.

 

[Strathead]

Looking at a job for a church. They have cove lighting on 2 long walls. 8' T12 strips. They want to replace with LED lighting of a similar output.

I installed some LED tube lights for 1 customer that he really liked. I didn't care for them, thought they were cheaply made, rather flimsy. I am searching for any other LED tubes out there, haven't seen much yet. Also wondering about LED rope lights.

Have any of you done a similar upgrade? Thanks for any feedback on it.

My standard reaction to this type of question is, ask your favorite supplier to ask your, or his favorite Lighting distributor for the lighting part number, layout and cost. My reputation with mine is that, if it is mine it is theirs. Let them do the work. And they know I expect it to be acceptable within the parameters I spell out. In this case pretty simple. exactly what you describe, except I would get the customers commitment on color first also. A lot of difference between cool white and warm white.

 

[GoldDigger]

Looking at a job for a church. They have cove lighting on 2 long walls. 8' T12 strips. They want to replace with LED lighting of a similar output.

What is their motivation for the change? An LED installation is not going to be significantly more efficient (or likely even less efficient, in fact) compared to a T8 or T5 installation. If they want to be able to dim the lights, that would be a valid reason, but then you need to limit your search to dimmable LEDs.
Or if it is a visible fixture, are they just interested in appearance?

 

[jmellc]

What is their motivation for the change? An LED installation is not going to be significantly more efficient (or likely even less efficient, in fact) compared to a T8 or T5 installation. If they want to be able to dim the lights, that would be a valid reason, but then you need to limit your search to dimmable LEDs.
Or if it is a visible fixture, are they just interested in appearance?

I have a message out to the pastor for further info. Truth is, I didn't ask a lot of questions. He said he wanted LED's so I started looking for them. He usually knows what he wants.

 

[Sernund]

Looking at a job for a church. They have cove lighting on 2 long walls. 8' T12 strips. They want to replace with LED lighting of a similar output.

I installed some LED tube lights for 1 customer that he really liked. I didn't care for them, thought they were cheaply made, rather flimsy. I am searching for any other LED tubes out there, haven't seen much yet. Also wondering about LED rope lights.

Have any of you done a similar upgrade? Thanks for any feedback on it.

Led lights are bit expensive so I have never done bulk changes. They do save energy and you can get lots of information on internet. Just try it

 

[TNBaer]

Typically, you should retro with LED tubes because the sockets are not rated for line voltage. Tombstone manufacturers have released multiple warnings on using their equipment for this purpose.

Really expensive, really nice: http://www.acclaimlighting.com/products/product-detail/product/dynacove-interior-ho.html

Pretty inexpensive: http://www.maxlite.com/products/led-rkl-retrofit-kit-strips

Fairly inexpensive way to put in new fixtures: http://www.vividleds.us/pages/products/f12.html

Have fun!

 

[GoldDigger]

Typically, you should retro with LED tubes because the sockets are not rated for line voltage. Tombstone manufacturers have released multiple warnings on using their equipment for this purpose.

Really expensive, really nice: http://www.acclaimlighting.com/products/product-detail/product/dynacove-interior-ho.html

Pretty inexpensive: http://www.maxlite.com/products/led-rkl-retrofit-kit-strips

Fairly inexpensive way to put in new fixtures: http://www.vividleds.us/pages/products/f12.html

Have fun!

The ROI calculator at vividleds.us cheats. If you specify exactly the same wattage for existing bulbs as for LEDs, in addition to adding the cost of replacement and maintenance to the first column, they also add in the HVAC costs corresponding to the wattage of the existing bulbs, but not for the LED bulbs.

 

[TNBaer]

The ROI calculator at vividleds.us cheats. If you specify exactly the same wattage for existing bulbs as for LEDs, in addition to adding the cost of replacement and maintenance to the first column, they also add in the HVAC costs corresponding to the wattage of the existing bulbs, but not for the LED bulbs.

That's not surprising. I've discussed here multiple times that kind of wonky mathematics of LED manufacturers. Maybe it's time to rediscuss? Or you can visit my thread on this subject from LinkedIn and have yourself a laugh or two: http://www.linkedin.com/groups/How-..._search_item_list-0-b-ttl&goback=.gna_1567147

 

[kwired]

Led lights are bit expensive so I have never done bulk changes. They do save energy and you can get lots of information on internet. Just try it

Saving energy, purchasing and installing equipment, and average usage all need consideration to determine ROI.

You will use less energy as long as you remain at similar lighting levels with the new technology. You also must consider since this is a church whether or not these lights have enough run time each month to make the savings worth the equipment investment. Some churches maybe this is not a problem. Others maybe only will see a few hours each week on such equipment, making the payback period much longer than at a place where there is at least 8-10 hours of operation daily.

 

[hillbilly1]

LED might be a good choice if the lights are in a location that is hard or expensive (lots of scaffolding or boom lift required) but generally does not pay off in most church applications. The heating and cooling loads are where most of the dollars go to. Efficient control of those gives the greatest payback. I'm looking at installing Nest thermostats in one church due to their internet capability and motion sensing technology. They can actually "Learn" when the spaces are being used, and also automatically turn the system on if the space is being used off schedule, eliminating manual overriding with people "forgetting" to turn it back off. I have these at my house, and at some of the boss's houses, and it works great.

 

[TNBaer]

LED might be a good choice if the lights are in a location that is hard or expensive (lots of scaffolding or boom lift required) but generally does not pay off in most church applications. The heating and cooling loads are where most of the dollars go to.

I really wonder about these cooling loads. LEDs have an electronic driver, essentially a ballast. To the touch, they are about as hot as T8. Sure, if you compare them to those old magnetics there's probably a cooling savings, but compared to T8...I don't think so

I do have an LED project I'm working on right now in a cold storage facility where T8 isn't a great option. My default is usually T8, though. Inexpensive, highly efficient, low glare, easily replaceable, lots of luminaire options. T8 is really great tech. I know it ain't sexy, but there's a reason why most LED manufacturers compare their product to T12 and not T8.

 

[GoldDigger]

I do have an LED project I'm working on right now in a cold storage facility where T8 isn't a great option. My default is usually T8, though. Inexpensive, highly efficient, low glare, easily replaceable, lots of luminaire options. T8 is really great tech. I know it ain't sexy, but there's a reason why most LED manufacturers compare their product to T12 and not T8.

You are right that the three biggest REAL advantages for the right LED, are lifetime, cold temperature operation, and dimmability. The efficiency advantage over T8 is arguable and there is no advantage over T5.

 

[tom baker]

My church has RGB LEDs on the back wall of the stage. They are DMX controlled and colors are changed according to season, weather, etc.
Very effective as accent lighting!

 

[kwired]

I really wonder about these cooling loads. LEDs have an electronic driver, essentially a ballast. To the touch, they are about as hot as T8. Sure, if you compare them to those old magnetics there's probably a cooling savings, but compared to T8...I don't think so

I do have an LED project I'm working on right now in a cold storage facility where T8 isn't a great option. My default is usually T8, though. Inexpensive, highly efficient, low glare, easily replaceable, lots of luminaire options. T8 is really great tech. I know it ain't sexy, but there's a reason why most LED manufacturers compare their product to T12 and not T8.

Surface temperature makes little difference, it is total BTU/hr that makes a difference to heating and cooling equipment. Plus you also have difference in amount of heat the lamp produces.

Example:

I can get a 15 watt soldering iron hot enough to solder, but that heat is concentrated all in a much smaller area than a 300 watt incandescant lamp that doesn't get hot enough to solder with.

 

[TNBaer]

You are right that the three biggest REAL advantages for the right LED, are lifetime, cold temperature operation, and dimmability. The efficiency advantage over T8 is arguable and there is no advantage over T5.

Believe it or not T8 is actually more efficient than T5. The smaller diameter of the T5 does make the fixture more efficient so at a certain height that becomes a big deal. Also, at this point T8 even has the edge on lifetime. People think LED has the edge there because LED is often compared to commodity grade T8 lamps. However, when compared to high end T8 lamps LED still comes up short.

Dimmability and control are huge, especially in the speciality market. Check out what companies like Acclaim are doing and imagine the possibilities: http://player.vimeo.com/video/30735548?title=0&byline=0&amp

 

[Electric-Light]

The ROI calculator at vividleds.us cheats. If you specify exactly the same wattage for existing bulbs as for LEDs, in addition to adding the cost of replacement and maintenance to the first column, they also add in the HVAC costs corresponding to the wattage of the existing bulbs, but not for the LED bulbs.

ROI calculators provided by LED reseller/importers run in the world where you can borrow $200,000 for a house and it would be paid off in 15 years if you continue to pay $1111.11 monthly and banks provide this to you as a public service to be nice.

 

[Electric-Light]

Surface temperature makes little difference, it is total BTU/hr that makes a difference to heating and cooling equipment. Plus you also have difference in amount of heat the lamp produces.

Example:

I can get a 15 watt soldering iron hot enough to solder, but that heat is concentrated all in a much smaller area than a 300 watt incandescant lamp that doesn't get hot enough to solder with.

LEDs are the most needy when it comes to cooling. Required surface temperature makes a great deal of difference.
See here:
http://www.solaislighting.com/downl...ais_Active Cooling_White Paper-10-10-2010.pdf

For example, 500kW IT equipment is still 500kW, but a high ambient setup like one of the Google's data centers can operate with minimal cooling. Traditional design requires great deal of energy expenditure in mechanical refrigeration to maintain a certain temperature while carrying a 500kW load.

If your laptop can tolerate to get as hot as a 15W soldering iron, it wouldn't need a cooling fan at all.

 

[kwired]

LEDs are the most needy when it comes to cooling. Required surface temperature makes a great deal of difference.
See here:
http://www.solaislighting.com/downl...ais_Active Cooling_White Paper-10-10-2010.pdf

For example, 500kW IT equipment is still 500kW, but a high ambient setup like one of the Google's data centers can operate with minimal cooling. Traditional design requires great deal of energy expenditure in mechanical refrigeration to maintain a certain temperature while carrying a 500kW load.

If your laptop can tolerate to get as hot as a 15W soldering iron, it wouldn't need a cooling fan at all.

My point was the laptop drawing 15 watts will be dispersing the heat over a larger area than the soldering iron that is trying to concentrate it into a very small point. They intentionally use heat sinks to distribute this heat to. LED's also have heat sinking designs to help control the temperature and prolong LED life. You don't want to be sinking heat from the soldering iron until you are actually using it for its designed purpose - you then sink some heat into the solder. With the soldering iron you put 15 watts in, you get 15 watts of heat out. With the computer or LED if you put 15 watts in, you get some processing done or some light output, which both result in some energy to the output, and probably a very small amount of the input, the rest is still given up as heat.

 

[weressl]

Looking at a job for a church. They have cove lighting on 2 long walls. 8' T12 strips. They want to replace with LED lighting of a similar output.

I installed some LED tube lights for 1 customer that he really liked. I didn't care for them, thought they were cheaply made, rather flimsy. I am searching for any other LED tubes out there, haven't seen much yet. Also wondering about LED rope lights.

Have any of you done a similar upgrade? Thanks for any feedback on it.

Are these going to be installed in the area where the services are held? If so they are probably not a cost effective solution as far as how many hours in a year they will be used. Be prepared to pay 15-20 times the cost of a single fluorescent tube.

If you're looking for visual effect the continuous strips of 16' of dimmable and even color changing strips can be quite impressive. (Like changing the colors to the week's liturgical color?!)

 

[Electric-Light]

My point was the laptop drawing 15 watts will be dispersing the heat over a larger area than the soldering iron that is trying to concentrate it into a very small point. They intentionally use heat sinks to distribute this heat to. LED's also have heat sinking designs to help control the temperature and prolong LED life. You don't want to be sinking heat from the soldering iron until you are actually using it for its designed purpose - you then sink some heat into the solder. With the soldering iron you put 15 watts in, you get 15 watts of heat out. With the computer or LED if you put 15 watts in, you get some processing done or some light output, which both result in some energy to the output, and probably a very small amount of the input, the rest is still given up as heat.

Heatsink is needed, because CPU can't function if it is allowed to get hot enough to let radiant heat get rid of most of 15W.

Heatsink can get no cooler than ambient and LEDs seriously struggle in unairconditioned high ceilings.

A 15W LED requires quite a heatsink, because the heatsink needs to operate at low delta T and virtually no dissipation by radiant power.