Client refuses permit - turn down work? Turn them in?

[grasfulls]

Call about permit for one switch

Call about permit for one switch

In Florida the inspector goes after the contractor and refers it to Code Enforcement if there's no compliance in a reasonable time. Code Enforcement then goes after the property owner and the contractor licensing board can go after the license holder (you).
It is the contractor's license on the line with the state for violation of requirement to have the permit.
I would suggest you turn down every job where someone wants you to jeopardize your license.
But a permit for one switch? Try calling the bldg dept and ask if they really want a permit for installing one switch.

I have and the "canned" formal reply is that all new installations require a permit". They may informally say no, but try proving that when a neighbor complains that "someone is doing work next door, do they have a permit?" The department will never acknowledge they said no permit is needed as they would be violating the very codes and laws they claim to enforce.

But I AGREE, it just makes sense not to be so letter-of-the law.

 

[grasfulls]

License means more to me

License means more to me

If the local rules required a permitt I would just include it in the price and not offer the customer an option, my license means a lot more to me than one job.

If the customer wanted you to cut corners on the actual work, would you?


Roger

This is where I am heading, but I admit I will be abandoning a couple of thousand a month (good months), several hundred per month minimally.

 

[grasfulls]

Permit to replace GFCI

Permit to replace GFCI

Yeah, around here there are AHJs that require a permit to REPLACE a GFI receptacle. The homeowner will also have to bring their smoke detectors up to code at the same time. No wonder people try to do so much themselves.

Seems crazy, I think the level to which permits have been driven is more of a safety hazard than just mandating the HO show it was done by a licensed contractor in good standing, with a local business license (if required). There should be a monetary cut-off point where a permit is not necessary. "Oh, that will be $500", HomeOwner: "Forget it", then goes and gets JoeSchmo to do it for next to nothing, and who knows how well. We lose a job, the HO may get a lousy end result, and JoeSchmo is off to the next house.

 

[ramsy]

The customer can either take the quote or rates or hire an unlicensed handy man. With that said, if an EC wants to jeprodize his license

When contractors are really worried, their journeyman employees are sent some side work, as off the clock weekend warriors.

Rather than give away work, sneaky contractors will do "Mission Impossible"
"All knowledge of this mission, or our involvement will be denied. This tape will self destruct in five seconds."

 

[ramsy]

I get the impression that none of the posters here have heard of the minor label permit.

At least Oregon & Washington are generating some revenue from the minor-services sector, completely lost to most other bass ackward States.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I have and the "canned" formal reply is that all new installations require a permit". They may informally say no, but try proving that when a neighbor complains that "someone is doing work next door, do they have a permit?" The department will never acknowledge they said no permit is needed as they would be violating the very codes and laws they claim to enforce.

But I AGREE, it just makes sense not to be so letter-of-the law.

I will say that my official answer is "listen very close, the official answer is yes you need a permit. Have a nice day." and you are correct I will never say that I told you that a permit wasn't required and if you are silly enough to get caught, all I may do is wave the fines.

Our minimum permit fee is $80 so that's not to bad and yes you might have to wait an hour or two, but as was stated before, you became a licensed contractor and agreed to comply with all the laws that go along with that. If you're willing to break one law.....

Here's a question I ask all the time, what's the difference between 1 outlet and 10 outlets? The correct answer is 9 outlets. The real answer is nothing, so where do you draw the line? Do we say that you don't need a permit to add one receptacle and then you take 10 days to add 10? Now as far as our fees go, that $80 is good all the way up to a service change.

 

[grasfulls]

Secret Work

Secret Work

When contractors are really worried, their journeyman employees are sent some side work, as off the clock weekend warriors.

Rather than give away work, sneaky contractors will do "Mission Impossible"
"All knowledge of this mission, or our involvement will be denied. This tape will self destruct in five seconds."

There are so many ways around it, you are right. Weekend warriors, under the table, kickback....no permit...*sigh*

 

[grasfulls]

2 hour wait

2 hour wait

I will say that my official answer is "listen very close, the official answer is yes you need a permit. Have a nice day." and you are correct I will never say that I told you that a permit wasn't required and if you are silly enough to get caught, all I may do is wave the fines.

Our minimum permit fee is $80 so that's not to bad and yes you might have to wait an hour or two, but as was stated before, you became a licensed contractor and agreed to comply with all the laws that go along with that. If you're willing to break one law.....

Here's a question I ask all the time, what's the difference between 1 outlet and 10 outlets? The correct answer is 9 outlets. The real answer is nothing, so where do you draw the line? Do we say that you don't need a permit to add one receptacle and then you take 10 days to add 10? Now as far as our fees go, that $80 is good all the way up to a service change.

Well, 80 bucks is awesome! I do not think you can get a permit for under $170 in SF CAL, I will have to look again. Up to a 2 hour wait....unbelievable based on where I live. I do know some inspectors in at least one area start their day off calling planned sites and giving a one hour window, it is a great thing, we can go to a different job and get back maybe 15 minutes beforehand. Most are "we can only give you the morning or afternoon. You can try calling us that morning and see if we can give you a better time". So, up to three hours is standard and at times they run late and it is 3.5 or more if they have to bump us from last one in the AM to first in the PM.

The statement "willing to break the law"....well....if I have to pay bills and the client does not want a permit, I am doing the work. So, perhaps "the law" should be rewritten so we do not have to break a law to live? I go back to mandating the homeowner maintain a record of small jobs performed by licensed contractors in good standing at the time work was performed.

 

[Ponchik]

I don't think any one of the poster that were not electricians would pay around $400-$500 to change a receptacle or a GFCI.

I understand that permit is required but I also believe 90% of electricians here will not lose the job because the customer is not willing to get permit.

 

[Speshulk]

All EXCELLENT points, sadly, they fall on deaf POLITICAL ears. It is my point too, it is unfair to target a contractor as well as to force a homeowner to pay unrealistic fees for a simple install. How on earth can that be rectified? You should read what the one San Bruno Calif official said, here is a partial quote:
"The San Bruno Building Division cooperates with all government agencies."
"The owner and contractor are both responsible for violating state law and can be prosecuted. They are both in collusion violating state law."

Thanks

Ridiculous. A building permit is permission to have work done. It's the owner who is a resident of the municipality that grants permission, not the contractor. The contractor is just an agent of the property owner.

 

[Blaer]

I don't see what the problem is.

Get the permit. Don't mention it. Keep it in the truck (oops, I forgot to post it).

When the inspector comes, what's the customer going to do? Turn you in? Refuse to pay? Sue? Good luck with that.

That's assuming the customer even finds out.

Maybe the customer never learns. Job ends and he refuses to pay. You sue, and ask for damages. He tells the judge not to enforce the contract because because you did not get required permit. You play dumb, ask him what on earth he's talking about, and produce the permit. The judge, knowing a schemer when he sees one, happily awards you triple damages.

 

[grasfulls]

minor label permit

minor label permit

At least Oregon & Washington are generating some revenue from the minor-services sector, completely lost to most other bass ackward States.

Never heard of it, sounds like a perfectly good idea, how odd that someone would display common sense.

 

[GoldDigger]

"The owner and contractor are both responsible for violating state law and can be prosecuted. They are both in collusion violating state law."Thanks

In most states, and federal law, conspiracy to commit a misdemeanor is a felony. :happysad:

 

[grasfulls]

Listen Carefully

Listen Carefully

I will say that my official answer is "listen very close, the official answer is yes you need a permit. Have a nice day." and you are correct I will never say that I told you that a permit wasn't required and if you are silly enough to get caught, all I may do is wave the fines.

Our minimum permit fee is $80 so that's not to bad and yes you might have to wait an hour or two, but as was stated before, you became a licensed contractor and agreed to comply with all the laws that go along with that. If you're willing to break one law.....

Here's a question I ask all the time, what's the difference between 1 outlet and 10 outlets? The correct answer is 9 outlets. The real answer is nothing, so where do you draw the line? Do we say that you don't need a permit to add one receptacle and then you take 10 days to add 10? Now as far as our fees go, that $80 is good all the way up to a service change.

Well, you are probably an anomaly, or at least relative to this area. Also, you should not have to be forced into what seems a good way of dealing with it, it should be the allowed norm.

 

[satcom]

i think it is a waste of time and money to get a permit, the city just wants to make money, and who cares if i don't get a permit I don't think my insurance company cares they will pay for my biggest investment my home if it burns , even if it was never permitted or inspected, will they? heck I can afford to loose $200 to 300K no one thinks of the big risk they take, when they fail to get permits, and inspections.

 

[jmellc]

This brings up a list of issues together. It has always bothered me that we have to get licensed to prove we can do the work. Then we have to get permit and inspection to be sure we did it right. If that is the case, why require a license? If inspector will assure a proper job, let the homeowner do it. In our state if the inspector missed something and an accident happens, guess who is liable? Contractor; inspector is covered by public immunity. How convenient for him.

I don't know of any homeowners who have been fined over permits, there have probably been some. I have had to walk away from a few jobs where customer refused to pay for permits. Customers also change their tune in a split second. I hear of a lot who push the EC to do the job with no permits, then deny it if a problem arises. I have seen similar if I advise for or against something. When customer's plan fails it becomes "why didn't you tell me......?" Up front he says "I know safety is an issue but I am out of money for more stuff". Problem arises; "you should have told me how risky that was"
lj/

 

[jmellc]

I don't know a specific case but I am hearing of insurance companies refusing claims if they find out that unpermitted work was done at the house.

 

[kbsparky]

Simple. Have the customer sign-off on your paperwork indicating that any permit/inspection costs associated with the project will be billed and paid for separately by them.

Quote the actual cost of the job, separating the permit/inspection costs (this is called "unbundling" and is becoming standard practice in many industries).

That way, they acknowledge the existence of the requirements, and agree to those costs up front if needed.

 

[grasfulls]

Unbundling

Unbundling

Simple. Have the customer sign-off on your paperwork indicating that any permit/inspection costs associated with the project will be billed and paid for separately by them.

Quote the actual cost of the job, separating the permit/inspection costs (this is called "unbundling" and is becoming standard practice in many industries).

That way, they acknowledge the existence of the requirements, and agree to those costs up front if needed.

This is a good idea, but I am unsure, at least here in litigious California, that we can create a contract absolving ourselves of the liability State (and some local) law puts on us. I think they would have to add the verbiage allowing us to so do "we will kill the contractor EXCEPT when they have....".

They already require us to include about a page worth of stuff relative to "right to cancel", "who to contact", etc. It would be great if they mandate wording along the lines of "you have been notified of the requirement to take out a permit for this work, if you have chosen not to do so the contractor is mandated to indicate so within this contract. You may be held liable for the enforcement of all laws relative to the lack of securing proper permits."

Anything that puts the burden where it should lie, not on an honest contractor. One person in here used the words "if you are willing to break one law...." (something like that), well, what if the law is just unreasonable the way it is written? Yes, we can go down the road of "who determines reasonableness on this and all other laws".... I am only concerned with this one.

 

[kwired]

Bottom line is you can't have professional work done via handiman practices and costs. A professional not only knows how to do the job safe and correct, he also knows the applicable laws, carries liability insurance, workers compensation, etc.

Consumers don't care about all that, they just see a couple things, price, appearance of finished product, performance of finished product. Performance may not even include safety, just desired functionality.

This combination makes for a big can of worms, and often leads to at least some compromise of all parties involved, or nothing would ever get done.