Service disconnect for generator

[Gregg Harris]

225.31 Disconnecting Means. Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure

 

[goldstar]

The gas valve would in fact shut the generator down but it does not disconnect the conductors from thier source, therefore
it does not meet the definition of an electrical disconnect and cannot be considered one.

I understand that and I agree you. However, if a customer chooses to lock the access to their generator electrical disconnect(s) because he or she believes they are in an area where someone will pull up to the curb-side and go onto their property and steal their generator, then, as a secondary means, the gas shut-off should be considered an acceptable disconnect means. IMHO, anyone operating the electric disconnect means would be considered a "Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved. Anyone else should be able to shut the gas valve and stop the generator from producing electricity.

 

[jap]

I understand that and I agree you. However, if a customer chooses to lock the access to their generator electrical disconnect(s) because he or she believes they are in an area where someone will pull up to the curb-side and go onto their property and steal their generator, then, as a secondary means, the gas shut-off should be considered an acceptable disconnect means. IMHO, anyone operating the electric disconnect means would be considered a "Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved. Anyone else should be able to shut the gas valve and stop the generator from producing electricity.

I dont agree with any of this at all so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I see it completely the opposite, almost everyone I know, Men and Women alike,know how to shut a breaker off. It's just something most people know how to do.
My wife and kids can shut breakers off, probably could even shut the disconnect off out at the pole, if they needed to,and they are no where near qualified people.
They probably would hesitate however feeling comfortable with shutting off a gas valve.

 

[goldstar]

I don't agree with any of this at all so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

So be it. This is just a discussion. You have your opinion and I have mine. It was never my intention to try to persuade the CMP to re-write the NEC. Just offering a different (out-of-the-box) and logical point of view.

I see it completely the opposite, almost everyone I know, Men and Women alike,know how to shut a breaker off. It's just something most people know how to do.

Ever tried to explain to a homeowner on the phone how to check to see if a breaker is tripped or how to reset one ? You're better off getting in your truck and driving 25 miles to do it yourself.

My wife and kids can shut breakers off, probably could even shut the disconnect off out at the pole, if they needed to,and they are no where near qualified people.
They probably would hesitate however feeling comfortable with shutting off a gas valve.

Not so difficult. Big red handle. Turn it counter-clock wise 1/4 turn. If you taught them how to turn off a breaker this is not that much different.

 

[kwired]

Ever tried to explain to a homeowner on the phone how to check to see if a breaker is tripped or how to reset one ? You're better off getting in your truck and driving 25 miles to do it yourself.

You have a good point with this. I have had many times where people could not figure this task out. Even with QO breakers that have the orange trip indicator

 

[ceb58]

Well lets discuss this point.

445.18 Disconnecting Means Required for Generators.
Generators shall be equipped with disconnect(s), lockable
in the open position, by means of which the generator and


all protective devices and control apparatus are able to be
disconnected entirely from the circuits supplied by the generator
except where both of the following conditions apply:
(1) The driving means for the generator can be readily shut
down.
(2) The generator is not arranged to operate in parallel with
another generator or other source of voltage.

So by this you could use a gas cutoff BUT IMPO you still need another disconnect at the structure served. If you look at Article 702 II it covers WIRING. 702.12 tells you the disconnect SHALL meet 225.36. Article 225 doesn't differentiate from power source to power source it covers outdoor feeders which is what you have once you connect them to the generator and the building served.

 

[jap]

So be it. This is just a discussion. You have your opinion and I have mine. It was never my intention to try to persuade the CMP to re-write the NEC. Just offering a different (out-of-the-box) and logical point of view.
Ever tried to explain to a homeowner on the phone how to check to see if a breaker is tripped or how to reset one ? You're better off getting in your truck and driving 25 miles to do it yourself.
Not so difficult. Big red handle. Turn it counter-clock wise 1/4 turn. If you taught them how to turn off a breaker this is not that much different.

1/4 Turn huh?

 

[jap]

1/4 turn wouldnt shut off any gas valve I have on my property.

 

[jap]

I'm sorry I thought that said 1/2 turn my mistake.

 

[jap]

I agree its easy to shut off a gas valve but most dont realize that not all gas valves have handles on them
and are shut off with a crescent wrench and dont stop at a 1/4 turn if they dont have a stop, just
90 degrees to the piple

 

[goldstar]

I agree its easy to shut off a gas valve but most dont realize that not all gas valves have handles on them
and are shut off with a crescent wrench and dont stop at a 1/4 turn if they dont have a stop, just
90 degrees to the piple

I'm not sure what's acceptable in your area for NG generators . Out here the plumbers are required to use a gas ball valve with a red handle. If the handle is oriented in the same direction as the gas line it is ON. If you turn it 90 degrees to the left so that it's perpendicular to the pipe it's OFF.

 

[GoldDigger]

I'm not sure what's acceptable in your area for NG generators . Out here the plumbers are required to use a gas ball valve with a red handle. If the handle is oriented in the same direction as the gas line it is ON. If you turn it 90 degrees to the left so that it's perpendicular to the pipe it's OFF.

On the customer side, same out here. But the GASCO main valve at the meter is usually a ball or cone valve with a straight bar cast on one face to fit a slotted wrench. There is a big business in cheap stamped metal wrenches/handles to be left attached near the shutoff. Again though perpendicular is off, parallel is on.

 

[jap]

I'm not sure what's acceptable in your area for NG generators . Out here the plumbers are required to use a gas ball valve with a red handle. If the handle is oriented in the same direction as the gas line it is ON. If you turn it 90 degrees to the left so that it's perpendicular to the pipe it's OFF.

It's that way out here also and the customer side of the gas meter is like Goldigger said.