"gluing" wall plates to wall.

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Desreft

Member
Not sure if this has been asked before but here it goes... sorry if it is a repeat.

I am working on a correctional facility and the architect is requesting me to replace my confinement type wall plates (10ga. steel) and replace them with this (nylon wall plates that are unbreakable):
http://www.legrand.us/passandseymour/duplex-plates/unbreakable/standard/tp82red.aspx

In addition, he would like me to specify a security type (pick proof) sealant around the back and edges of the wall plate. This will in effect glue the wall plate to the concrete wall. The only way to remove it afterwards would be with a chisel and a hammer or a disolving agent if one is available.

Can someone tell me if this box is still accessible?
 
D

Desreft

Member
the definition of accessible in article 100.

Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed
or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish
or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the
building.


Hammer and chisel at the least will damage the finish. (finish on a concrete wall = paint? ) I am not sure what a disolving agent will do.
 
G

Gregg Harris

Senior Member
Location
Virginia
Occupation
Electrical,HVAC, Technical Trainer
Desreft said:
the definition of accessible in article 100.

Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed
or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish
or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the
building.


Hammer and chisel at the least will damage the finish. (finish on a concrete wall = paint? ) I am not sure what a disolving agent will do.
Click to expand...

The cover could be cut off without damaging the structure or finish.
 
Ponchik

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
Technically the wiring in the box is not accessible per definition.

However, taking a plastic cover plate off of a concrete wall will not damage the wall to any much extent, the paint may come off (big deal). I beleive for security reason gluing the cover plate is much important than a concrete wall that has a chipped paint.

Again, some will argue that the cover plate is part of the building finish.
 
ceb58

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
eric9822 said:
Why not tamper proof screws? Seems easier then gluing the plates to the wall.
Click to expand...

iwire said:
It's a correctional facility, they would still bend or break the plates just for the sake of doing so.
Click to expand...
After working in the prison system for 20 years I can tell you that screws and glue will not stop them from tearing them up if they want to. One prison I worked at had a new dormitory built. The contractors installed cut proof stainless steel screen wire in frames to cover the windows. They used the "snake eye" security screws to fasten the frames to the windows. It took the inmates about 3 days to figure out the handles of the wheelbarrow from a monopoly game fit the screws perfectly. We had to go back and use a thread lock that when hardened had to be heated to above 700 degrees F before it would break loose.
 
Fulthrotl

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Location
HB, CA (19 Hrs. 22 Min. from Winged Horses)
Occupation
E
Desreft said:
Not sure if this has been asked before but here it goes... sorry if it is a repeat.

I am working on a correctional facility and the architect is requesting me to replace my confinement type wall plates (10ga. steel) and replace them with this (nylon wall plates that are unbreakable):
http://www.legrand.us/passandseymour/duplex-plates/unbreakable/standard/tp82red.aspx

In addition, he would like me to specify a security type (pick proof) sealant around the back and edges of the wall plate. This will in effect glue the wall plate to the concrete wall. The only way to remove it afterwards would be with a chisel and a hammer or a disolving agent if one is available.

Can someone tell me if this box is still accessible?
Click to expand...

well, i can suggest something to seal them with... 3M 550 sealant and waterproofing.
you could cut them off with a fein tool or something similar, but the stuff is pretty
durable when fully cured. i put a bead around some 30 amp disconnects on the side
of package units, and after it's cured, there isn't any way to pull those off if the screws
weren't there.

it's paintable, mold resistant, and suitable for marine work below the waterline. very waterproof.
stays flexable, and breaks at about 300% elongation. i got some on my hands. two weeks
to get it off.

blue nitrle disposable gloves strongly suggested. using your finger to strike the caulk bead
barehanded is an incandescently stupid thing to do. this isn't your mommy's ge silicone sealer.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
eric9822 said:
Why not tamper proof screws? Seems easier then gluing the plates to the wall.
Click to expand...
Those don't work in that type of application...all you do is heat up the end of you tooth brush or other plastic object, hold it against the screw to form a "tool" and use your new tool to remove the screw. Device cover plates, even the nylon ones, make good shivs.

When the person has all day to figure out a way to remove something they will almost always find a way to do it. We installed some 12" x 12" steel cover plates over an abandoned speaker box in a poured concrete wall using these anchors. They were set tight with a 2 pound hammer, but the inmates had one off in less than a week.
 
T

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
I am with Don as I would also would consider that there is a "captive audience" that will consider it to be a challenge to defeat the attempt to secure the covers as is suggested. With nothing but time on their hands eventually they will overcome the obstacle.
 
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norcal

Senior Member
templdl said:
I am with Don as I would also would consider that there is a "captive audience" that will consider it to be a challenge to defeat the attempt to secure the covers as is suggested. With nothing but time on their hands eventually they will overcome the obstacle.
Click to expand...


The old saying that "the devil makes work for idle hands" is fitting for them.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
My question is why is the receptacle necessary in the first place. They go through a lot of trouble to eliminate anything that may be used to harm other inmates or for an inmate to harm themselves, yet they are willing to place a receptacle within an area where inmates can access it? Hopefully it is at least GFCI protected if deemed necessary.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
kwired said:
My question is why is the receptacle necessary in the first place. They go through a lot of trouble to eliminate anything that may be used to harm other inmates or for an inmate to harm themselves, yet they are willing to place a receptacle within an area where inmates can access it? Hopefully it is at least GFCI protected if deemed necessary.
Click to expand...

It always amazes me how often people want to redesign a job they know nothing about from their favorite chair.

Why can't we just accept the archetect has a reason for this outlet becuse I bet they do.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
iwire said:
It always amazes me how often people want to redesign a job they know nothing about from their favorite chair.

Why can't we just accept the archetect has a reason for this outlet becuse I bet they do.
Click to expand...

Which is what my question was, why is it there?

I know little about prisons. I did know someone that hung themselves in a prison cell using the bed sheets. I do know they are careful about protecting inmates from other inmates as well as themselves. Would seem to me a 120 volt receptacle would be easy to use for such purposes.
 
T

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
If I were the contractor I would do exactly as the architect directs and not make any suggestions.
What you want t do is to avoid and liability. It is the architect that should be specifying the install. Let the architect be the one who is liable.
The installer can write a disclaimer for any liability.
 
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