Capacitors, Dirty Power, Power Ripple

[mivey]

Ran across statements of capacitors cleaning up "dirty power" which they describe as a reactive power ripple. I would also like to discuss some of their other claims.

They mix a lot of fact with fiction. Some of the facts, at least for the commercial PACS product say that a capacitor should be installed near the reactive load. But then they go on to discuss huge savings and that power companies bill for kVA.

Another treat is reading about dirty power. Essentially they call reactive power the dirty power because it causes power ripples. I'm looking now for their take on harmonics.

They parade the staff engineers and certifieds to add credibility to what they are saying. I'm wading through now trying to separate fact from fiction in their write-ups. They seem to be pushing these products fast & furious and I would like to compile a reality check-list.

Anyone care to join in?

 

[mivey]

A link would be useful wouldn't it?

http://www.greenrevolutionems.com/

http://www.greenrevolutionems.com/power-application-correction-system/

http://www.greenrevolutionems.com/energy-crusher/

 

[mivey]

Here are a couple of claims:

PACS increases Power Factor and reduces motor-lag helping motors start easier, resulting in less energy consumption each time they cycle. This decreases the initial ?surge? impact on motors increasing their lifespan, as well as allowing them to use less energy when they start. All of this helps you to save at least a guaranteed 8% annually on your electric bills.

I don't see 8% here.

One consequence of AC power is a loss of efficiency arising from inductive loads, mainly electric motors. Electric motors return a ?ripple? back into the power lines called ?reactive power?. This ripple is ?dirty? power that flows backward into the power supply system. Another term, power factor, is a measure of the quality of the electrical power. The ideal power system is a pure 60Hz ?Sine Wave? which provides the maximum power for its users. Any extra ripple or irregular pattern causes a loss of efficiency.

Dirty power? Really?

Electric power customers are charged by the utility companies if the percent of ?ripple?, properly known as power factor, forces the utility to add capacitors to ?clean it? for other power customers. Within our own facilities, the reactive power ?ripple? coming from motors hurts efficiency since motors must pull more Amps to do work for us.

How is this going to "clean" the power going to other customers?

Total energy consumption is reduced when AC motors run with less heat and lower current.

OK but how does putting a capacitor at the panel or even next to the motor make the motor run cooler?

Motor life is improved with PACS because the reduction in motor current has a direct benefit in lower motor temperature. Heat is the main cause of failure, or shortened service life, of a motor. If the heat can be reduced 10%, it is possible a motor could run for a longer period before needing replacement.

PACS reduces the reactive power, an interference and distortion of the incoming electrical power ?waveform?. Power factor of 0.90 or above tells us the motor will require fewer amps and therefore run cooler and last for a longer life.

I'm thinking the motor amps will remain about the same.

Harmonics are electric power waveforms with frequencies above the base, or fundamental 60Hz line frequency. AC motors only respond to 60Hz frequency and any higher frequencies produce only heat, no work. With a poor power factor, reactive power includes frequency above 60Hz.

PACS helps to reduce one source of harmonics above 60Hz, which is present in the reactive power. All power lines contain many other frequencies. Reactive power is one cause of unwanted harmonics.

Not sure where they are coming from here.

 

[Jraef]

Capacitors as energy savers is a major scam that is going on all over the place right now, some of the more egregious offenders have been or are being pursued by law enforcement for fraud. They all should be in my opinion though. Some of the ones I found most humorous were those that trotted out university studies on the concept, then if you checked, the study never happened, or if it did, concluded that it did NOT work! But the scammers know that 99% of people reading the sales literature would not understand what the study said even if they bothered to read it.

Do a search in here on energy savers, we have beat this horse to death, but you may find interesting examples to use to back up what you obviously already feel is a scam in the works.

 

[mivey]

..you may find interesting examples to use to back up what you obviously already feel is a scam in the works.

I have read some and even contributed to some if I recall. Do you recall any mention before of "power ripple" and the negative effects? That seems to be something new.

I found this thread: http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=149715 where you mentioned something that grabbed my attention:

Contrary to popular belief they do exist and can be bought over the internet from Asia, but they are HIGHLY illegal and you could be spending time in jail just for connecting it.

Do you have any info on these? I have looked before because I wanted to know how they work but could not find any good material.

 

[Sahib]

Energy efficient products were used to be marked with star rating. Likewise, if Government organizations are involved by putting their stamp of approval before releasing such products to the market, it will act as a deterrent to the cheat merchants.

 

[mivey]

Energy efficient products were used to be marked with star rating. Likewise, if Government organizations are involved by putting their stamp of approval before releasing such products to the market, it will act as a deterrent to the cheat merchants.

Maybe. The concern is the mix of fact & fiction. This company states that it is a capacitor device. Given the right installation and rate structure, a capacitor can definitely save money in a commercial setting. Easy enough to get a stamp for that.

But they also seem to muddy the water with things like extended motor life due to lower motor current, reactive power as dirty power and power ripple, etc.

The residential device is clearly a scam and not really worth discussing.

One thing that irked me was the "engineering board". Evidently they have enough expertise on staff to make write-ups containing a lot of factual information but also enough expertise to come up with stuff like the negative effects of "power ripple" and the ability to make motors draw less current by using a capacitor.

Another irk is the use of credible company names like Siemens and Honeywell to fluff their resume.

 

[Besoeker]

Ran across statements of capacitors cleaning up "dirty power" which they describe as a reactive power ripple. I would also like to discuss some of their other claims.

They mix a lot of fact with fiction. Some of the facts, at least for the commercial PACS product say that a capacitor should be installed near the reactive load. But then they go on to discuss huge savings and that power companies bill for kVA.

Another treat is reading about dirty power. Essentially they call reactive power the dirty power because it causes power ripples. I'm looking now for their take on harmonics.

They parade the staff engineers and certifieds to add credibility to what they are saying. I'm wading through now trying to separate fact from fiction in their write-ups. They seem to be pushing these products fast & furious and I would like to compile a reality check-list.

Anyone care to join in?

OK. My two pence worth.
I was engaged to test, analyse, and report on one such product.
I need to be a little circumspect about this because I was paid for my work by a customer and posting it here would be....well I won't.
No reduction in power and some nasty resonances. Not unexpected of course.
Of course Joe Public doesn't have either the knowledge or resources to perform tests.
Snake oil comes to mind....

 

[mivey]

OK. My two pence worth.
I was engaged to test, analyse, and report on one such product.
I need to be a little circumspect about this because I was paid for my work by a customer and posting it here would be....well I won't.
No reduction in power and some nasty resonances. Not unexpected of course.
Of course Joe Public doesn't have either the knowledge or resources to perform tests.
Snake oil comes to mind....

Have you ever heard about the so-called negatives/dirtiness of reactive "power ripple"?

 

[Besoeker]

Have you ever heard about the so-called negatives/dirtiness of reactive "power ripple"?

That's a new one on me.
Your links are...........interesting....

 

[Sahib]

.

But they also seem to muddy the water with things like extended motor life due to lower motor current............

..........the ability to make motors draw less current by using a capacitor.

I want to submit that there may be some truth in the above statements. If the fault level is low enough, the voltage drop in the feeder may be reduced with the provision of a capacitor at motor end and thereby improved voltage across the motor terminals, thereby reduced current taken by motor. But where there is high fault level, the effect is negligible.

 

[Sahib]

duplicate

 

[Sahib]

duplicate

 

[Besoeker]

I want to submit that there may be some truth in the above statements. If the fault level is low enough, the voltage drop in the feeder may be reduced with the provision of a capacitor at motor end and thereby improved voltage across the motor terminals, thereby reduced current taken by motor.

You simply cannot generalise like that.
Reduced voltage at the motor terminals might make it take more current or less current.

 

[Sahib]

You simply cannot generalise like that.
Reduced voltage at the motor terminals might make it take more current or less current.

I said improved voltage across motor terminals and not reduced voltage across motor terminals.

If the fault level is low enough, the voltage drop in the feeder may be reduced with the provision of a capacitor at motor end and thereby improved voltage across the motor terminals, thereby reduced current taken by motor.

 

[Besoeker]

I said improved voltage across motor terminals and not reduced voltage across motor terminals.

Fine. Explain what you mean by "improved" voltage.
And how exactly that "improved" voltage would result in reduced current.

 

[weressl]

Fine. Explain what you mean by "improved" voltage.
And how exactly that "improved" voltage would result in reduced current.

That is voltage with proper schooling and upbringing, preferably Eaton.:rotflmao:

 

[Besoeker]

That is voltage with proper schooling and upbringing, preferably Eaton.:rotflmao:

Compliant and ethical, no doubt!

 

[Sahib]

You simply cannot generalise like that.

First please give an example for your above statement.

 

[Besoeker]

First please give an example for your above statement.

How can I without knowing what you mean by "improved" voltage?