Gfci in laundry room?

[RLyons]

Isn't it far cheaper to throw in the GFCI then to argue? My time is worth more then the time to argue & research, but admittedly it took me many years of experience to get that point

That's how I feel. Inspector had me install a GFI outlet located behind a dishwasher.

 

[Ponchik]

Isn't it far cheaper to throw in the GFCI then to argue? My time is worth more then the time to argue & research, but admittedly it took me many years of experience to get that point

I don't think it is cheaper. It only takes 5-10 minutes to convince the inspector that he/she is incorrect. (2) GFCI in the OP case will cost him about $30-$40

Lets assume the following:

You are installing MC cable and because of habit you install the plastic bushings (eventhough you and I know that it is not required for MC cable). It is Friday morning your last 10 cable installations and you run out of the bushings and you have inspection at 12PM.

1. will you install the cables without the bushings and get inspected, prove to the inspector that plastic bushings are not required, pass the inspection and get progress payment.
2. Or listen to the inspector that the plastic bushings are a MUST, come back on Monday finish your last installation, wait another 2 days to get scheduled, hold up the job and get a late progress payment by Thursday?

Which option will you do?

Sometimes it is not cheaper to listen to the inspector and do what he/she wants you to do.

This of course is my opinion.

 

[George Stolz]

There's also the "paying it forward" idea. By correcting the inspector today, the problem never returns. Leave it uncorrected, and everybody from now on has to either waste labor fixing a compliant install or grow a backbone on their own.

 

[iwire]

Nit pick........GFCI..............

GFCI and GFI are both accepted terminology.

Accepted by who?

I mean out in the feild both are used but in the NEC and the listing it is GFCI and it has a specific meaning.

 

[kwired]

Laundry, utility and wet bar sinks however do not have that exception.

What exception? Kitchen is in a separate section of code and just happens to have different requirements than other areas that have a sink.

 

[kwired]

Yeah. Think of a case when client is doing dishes and there is a fault to enclosure in garbage disposal. Wouldn't gfci save the person?

Would probably be a pretty rare instance and possibly a reason why GFCI is not required for those items. An intact equipment grounding conductor will cause the overcurrent device to open the circuit and protect the user. How often have you seen a compromised EGC to a DW or Disp?

There's also the "paying it forward" idea. By correcting the inspector today, the problem never returns. Leave it uncorrected, and everybody from now on has to either waste labor fixing a compliant install or grow a backbone on their own.

That is how I see most of those cases. If I feel an inspector is wrong, I am not going to let him push his authority around, it just is not right. Fortunately the inspectors I deal with are willing to accept my challenge and look into things instead of insisting they are correct. If it is a grey area - I am probably asking them beforehand and not letting them find it when they come to inspect.

 

[cowboyjwc]

What exception? Kitchen is in a separate section of code and just happens to have different requirements than other areas that have a sink.

Couldn't think of any other way to say it. the exception being "serve the countertop", in wet bars and laundry rooms there is no such wording so any receptacle within six feet of the edge of, let's say the wet bar sink, has to be GFCI protected, even if it has nothing to do with the wet bar.

 

[kwired]

Couldn't think of any other way to say it. the exception being "serve the countertop", in wet bars and laundry rooms there is no such wording so any receptacle within six feet of the edge of, let's say the wet bar sink, has to be GFCI protected, even if it has nothing to do with the wet bar.

I see it as a different area that has a different requirement, and also the reason it is mentioned in a different subsection of 210.8.

Bathrooms - also different subsection and different requirement - basically all mentioned receptacles need protection. Same with outdoors, garages, unfinished basements.

Long ago the rule in kitchens was within six feet of the sink, and counters away from sink did not require GFCI. Still kind of seems more logical to me, but I don't know what kind of statistics may have driven the change in requirements either.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Now I can't speak for NYC and I didn't read through your link to the Amendments, maybe there's something in there, but the NEC only requires outlets within 6' of a sink (exc. for kitchens)

'Except kitchens sinks'? I thought the 6' rule for sinks includes kitchen sinks. So the garbage disposal, nearby dishwasher etc dont have to be gfci?

FYI, the 2014 NEC will require gfci for any outlet within 6' of the kitchen sink. Trash compactors, disposals, instant hots, etc- if cord and plug and within 6' of the sink then it will need gfci.

BTW, dishwashers whether cord and plug or direct wire will also need GFCI.

Now couple this with the 2014 requirement that now will be required in Kitchens and we will have afci as well as gfci in the kitchen area.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I see it as a different area that has a different requirement, and also the reason it is mentioned in a different subsection of 210.8.

Bathrooms - also different subsection and different requirement - basically all mentioned receptacles need protection. Same with outdoors, garages, unfinished basements.

Long ago the rule in kitchens was within six feet of the sink, and counters away from sink did not require GFCI. Still kind of seems more logical to me, but I don't know what kind of statistics may have driven the change in requirements either.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm simply stating that they took "within six feet of the kitchen sink" out of that section and put in "serve the countertop", but did not give those same options to, laundry rooms or wet bars.

See the new thread I posted and then maybe it will make more sense as to my thinking.

 

[kwired]

FYI, the 2014 NEC will require gfci for any outlet within 6' of the kitchen sink. Trash compactors, disposals, instant hots, etc- if cord and plug and within 6' of the sink then it will need gfci.

BTW, dishwashers whether cord and plug or direct wire will also need GFCI.

Now couple this with the 2014 requirement that now will be required in Kitchens and we will have afci as well as gfci in the kitchen area.

That stinks. You know what justification they have for wanting even hard wired appliances GFCI protected?


Do you see someday we will eventually have not only a power bus in the panel but also a communications bus (or maybe even wireless communications) and each module (formerly know as circuit breakers) will be able to talk to a central unit telling us all about our electrical system, maybe even warning us of potential troubles if something abnormal comes up? Or even warning that something is overloaded and allowing time to remedy the situation before getting to the point where shut down is necessary, but immediate response to GFCI type problems for protection of users?

You may even be able to turn circuits on or off or reset them remotely. Will probably create more disconnecting means issues if they are capable of automatic or remote control though.

 

[Steviechia2]

FYI, the 2014 NEC will require gfci for any outlet within 6' of the kitchen sink. Trash compactors, disposals, instant hots, etc- if cord and plug and within 6' of the sink then it will need gfci.

BTW, dishwashers whether cord and plug or direct wire will also need GFCI.

Now couple this with the 2014 requirement that now will be required in Kitchens and we will have afci as well as gfci in the kitchen area.

I had heard this about arc fault in kitchens as well. Thats going to be huge problems with the appliances tripping the arcs!
This totally stinks!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The only info I have was from a meeting held in Raleigh this week. Keith Lofland gave us this info. I did not find it in the 2014 draft so this must be added since then.

I don't understand the hard wired dishwasher but there may have been some substantiation somewhere.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I found this

Section 210.8
GFCI protection shall be provided for outlets that supply dishwashers installed in dwelling unit locations.

Substantiation
As the requirement for ground-fault circuit-interrupters (GFCIs) has been expanded throughout the NEC
code, the amount of electrical shock incidents related to consumer products have continued to decline over time.
Increased usage of GFCls within branch circuits of residential homes is a highly effective means of further reducing the
potential for electrical shocks. CMP-2 should require GFCI protection on the dishwasher circuit.

 

[kwired]

I found this

Section 210.8
GFCI protection shall be provided for outlets that supply dishwashers installed in dwelling unit locations.

Substantiation
As the requirement for ground-fault circuit-interrupters (GFCIs) has been expanded throughout the NEC
code, the amount of electrical shock incidents related to consumer products have continued to decline over time.
Increased usage of GFCls within branch circuits of residential homes is a highly effective means of further reducing the
potential for electrical shocks. CMP-2 should require GFCI protection on the dishwasher circuit.

That is sufficient substantiation? Loss of equipment grounding conductor would seem to me to be a big reason for shock hazards outside of dropping portable appliances into a body of water. The loss of equipment grounding to a dishwasher is not all that likely compared to something that is unplugged frequently, and is very unlikely for a hardwired dishwasher. What are you going to touch on a dishwasher (outside of when servicing it) that will be energized if the EGC is intact? Portable tools, appliances, etc. GFCI makes more sense, they are often plugged into extension cords that may have compromised EGC or the tool or appliance itself may have a compromised EGC because the cord is handled a lot compared to something that is generally fixed in place like a dishwasher.

 

[gulkhan123]

Hello. Recently I had inspectors telling me to replace my dedicated 20 amp 120V receptacle in laundry to gfci protected. There is no sink but only the water outlet for washer. Do you experts know any code reference I should stick to? I'm in NEC 2008 with NYC amendments. Thank you in advance

I think it will be sensible to provide a GFCI socket within 6 feet of water outlet, based on NEC requiring GFCI protection within 6 feet of water sink. We can make judgement by looking at the intent of the NEC.

I hope many would agree with me.
Good Luck
gk

 

[Coastal]

I think it will be sensible to provide a GFCI socket within 6 feet of water outlet, based on NEC requiring GFCI protection within 6 feet of water sink. We can make judgement by looking at the intent of the NEC.

I hope many would agree with me.
Good Luck
gk

Yes, you never know when someone might pick up the refrigerator and throw it in the sink.

 

[darekelec]

how about this?
the intent of putting gfcis on countertop in kitchens was to protect small appliances falling in sink.
garbage disposal which is always submerged in water does not have to be gfci protected

 

[kwired]

how about this?
the intent of putting gfcis on countertop in kitchens was to protect small appliances falling in sink.
garbage disposal which is always submerged in water does not have to be gfci protected

Sounds like that may be changing in 2014 NEC. I would hope it only will require GFCI if cord and plug connected though. If permantly wired the risk of losing the EGC is not nearly as great, and if the GD case becomes energized the EGC is there to facilitate OCPD operation. With a cord and plug there is higher risk of compromised EGC and the need for GFCI is higher to compensate for this failure.

 

[bobbymari]

FYI, the 2014 NEC will require gfci for any outlet within 6' of the kitchen sink. Trash compactors, disposals, instant hots, etc- if cord and plug and within 6' of the sink then it will need gfci.

BTW, dishwashers whether cord and plug or direct wire will also need GFCI.

Now couple this with the 2014 requirement that now will be required in Kitchens and we will have afci as well as gfci in the kitchen area.

Dont have book right now to look up "outlets" but arent outlets an opening? Thus a hardwired appliance not be considered an outlet an exempt from this requirement? Bare with me if I'm mistaken again I can't check the definitions section right this minute