Commercial Kitchen GFCI

[cowboyjwc]

I didn't want to hijack another thread so I just started a new one.

So I will start off by saying:

1. I know what the code says.
2. I know what the definition of a kitchen is.

Here's the question, I have a break room for a new TI. The break room will have a sink and a range installed. Would you require all of the receptacles in that room to be GFCI protected?

I say yes.

 

[xformer]

I didn't want to hijack another thread so I just started a new one.

So I will start off by saying:

1. I know what the code says.
2. I know what the definition of a kitchen is.

Here's the question, I have a break room for a new TI. The break room will have a sink and a range installed. Would you require all of the receptacles in that room to be GFCI protected?

I say yes.

IMHO, I would agree with you as per 210.8 (B) (2)

 

[pete m.]

I agree. If there are no other defined "areas" (as the definition of kitchen indicates) in this room.

Pete

 

[Gregg Harris]

Yes

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I is an interesting question as the definition of Kitchen seems to imply a sink but it does not. I would assume an area with food preparation would desire a sink so in that sense the area is a break room and not a kitchen. The question then becomes what do they mean by food prep.

Edit-- My first sentence is incorrect as a Kitchen must have a sink- I read the def. and missed it. Doh....

 

[kwired]

art 100 definitions: Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking.

What if this "area" were just a space with no real dividing walls in the corner of a larger space? Is everything in the larger space part of the "kitchen" also? If your room has a definite "area" that is the kitchen and a definite area that is not the kitchen I say it is debatable at the very least.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I corrected my response above. The real question for me is the prep stuff. Do you see a break room as a place for food prep? IMO, if there is a sink it should be gfci and that will be the change in 2014 so it cannot be a question.

 

[kwired]

I corrected my response above. The real question for me is the prep stuff. Do you see a break room as a place for food prep? IMO, if there is a sink it should be gfci and that will be the change in 2014 so it cannot be a question.

If there is a range, apparently people will be cooking. There must be some prep involved. Do you consider taking a microwaveable product out of its packaging "preparation"? Maybe so. But don't you generally have at least a little more preparation on average involved when cooking on a range than when cooking in a microwave?

 

[jap]

art 100 definitions: Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking.

What if this "area" were just a space with no real dividing walls in the corner of a larger space? Is everything in the larger space part of the "kitchen" also? If your room has a definite "area" that is the kitchen and a definite area that is not the kitchen I say it is debatable at the very least.

Very debatable subject. Until they decide to put doors on an area that would define a specific space for a
kitchen, the imaginary Kitchen boundaries are very debatable. Especially with the Open floor plans
of today.

It would be more logical to me to define when a GFCI was needed not try to define an "Area" that it must be placed in.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If there is a range, apparently people will be cooking. There must be some prep involved. Do you consider taking a microwaveable product out of its packaging "preparation"? Maybe so. But don't you generally have at least a little more preparation on average involved when cooking on a range than when cooking in a microwave?

That is the debatable. Maybe the oven is for TV dinners and the stove to boil water for Tea. Who knows? But I think if I had to install this I would err on the safe side and use gfci's. Not sure why prep should even enter in to the situation

 

[cowboyjwc]

So you guys are looking at this the same way I did.

• Yes there is an "area" that has the sink and the range, and then the rest is just seating.
• Yes it is an open floor plan so there is no definition.
• They of course just call it a break room, so it's my job to define what it really is and I'm probably going to require GFCI's in the whole area.

Dennis, we do use the food prep part as a good way to define where they should go, especially in fast food. We simply tell them that from the counter back, will all be GFCI. Makes it easy to seperate the areas (kitchen/dining)

 

[jap]

So you guys are looking at this the same way I did.

• Yes there is an "area" that has the sink and the range, and then the rest is just seating.
• Yes it is an open floor plan so there is no definition.
• They of course just call it a break room, so it's my job to define what it really is and I'm probably going to require GFCI's in the whole area.

Dennis, we do use the food prep part as a good way to define where they should go, especially in fast food. We simply tell them that from the counter back, will all be GFCI. Makes it easy to seperate the areas (kitchen/dining)

If the break room is open to an office area 100'x100' and you quote installing GFCI's in the whole "Area"
I doubt you'll be the successful bidder and wont have to worry about it anyway.

 

[jap]

For the contractor that bids it that way anyway. I would think an inspector would have to use his or her
best judgement to define a realistic area where GFCI's would be required.

 

[kwired]

For the contractor that bids it that way anyway. I would think an inspector would have to use his or her
best judgement to define a realistic area where GFCI's would be required.

That was kind of my point when I first entered this discussion. The NEC does not define kitchen as a room but rather an area. Someone needs to determine the boundaries of this area. Walls sometimes make that easy, but when the "area" is just in a larger open space then a little common sense maybe kicks in a little.

I think in a restaurant or other similar area it is more obvious, cooking and preparation areas are part of the kitchen, serving areas could sometimes be questionable, and dining areas are not the kitchen.

 

[cowboyjwc]

That was kind of my point when I first entered this discussion. The NEC does not define kitchen as a room but rather an area. Someone needs to determine the boundaries of this area. Walls sometimes make that easy, but when the "area" is just in a larger open space then a little common sense maybe kicks in a little.

I think in a restaurant or other similar area it is more obvious, cooking and preparation areas are part of the kitchen, serving areas could sometimes be questionable, and dining areas are not the kitchen.

And I would agree with that too.

I guess part of my point is, we can write a generic code, but then someone has to decide what they mean. Why do we have to mention that outlets on roof tops and outdoors have to be GFCI protected. they're both outside so it's pretty obvious. So in other than dwelling units you have Kitchens, and within 6' of a sink. In this room you may have both or none as no receptacles are required. What if they add a vending machine that's not on the plans?

So when you guys bag on the inspector just remember that we don't always know the answer either.:?

 

[kwired]

And I would agree with that too.

I guess part of my point is, we can write a generic code, but then someone has to decide what they mean. Why do we have to mention that outlets on roof tops and outdoors have to be GFCI protected. they're both outside so it's pretty obvious. So in other than dwelling units you have Kitchens, and within 6' of a sink. In this room you may have both or none as no receptacles are required. What if they add a vending machine that's not on the plans?

So when you guys bag on the inspector just remember that we don't always know the answer either.:?

As far as the rooftop and outdoor receptacles goes, not all outdoor receptacles necessarily required GFCI protection before, but when they changed things to requiring all outdoor receptacles to require GFCI, they probably should have eliminated the rooftop requirement wording as it is kind of redundant now. JMO.