Burying a water bond

[James S.]

Ok, so here is the short version. A friend bought an old house (really old) that had a 100 amp panel with overhead service that had beed disconnected. The power company wouldn't hook it back up without city inspection. The city inspector wants a water bond. The nearest hose bib is about 15' away and I am wondering if you can bury a bare copper wire to the hose bib. It would be a lot cheaper and easier to go that route. Also, I know you need a #4 bond with 200amp service but what size do you need for 100 amp?

thanks in advance

James

 

[marti smith]

Check out 250.104, a good starting point.

 

[James S.]

Check out 250.104, a good starting point.

Thanks...according to Table 255.66 I need a minimum #8 copper. And the only thing I can find about buring it is 250.64 A that says aluminum cant be buried. So can I assume that copper is ok? I don't see anything else one way or the other.

Also, reguarding 250.64B. The last of it says anything smaller than #6 needs to be in conduit. Is that for anywhere or just where it is exposed? I would assume it would be anywhere just because of the size of the wire. I dont like to assume...it makes me insecure.

Thanks again. I hate to be the new guy that comes in and asks a bunch of questions. But asking questions is how we learn...well that and failure and I would rather not fail when it comes to electrical work. I have actually been lurking around off and on for a few months. I even used to think I was a pretty good electrician, now I am starting to realize the scope of what I don't know. It is humbling.

 

[jumper]

How does a water bib/spigot satisfy this?

250.68(C) Metallic Water Pipe and Structural Metal. Grounding
electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted
to be connected at the following locations and used
to extend the connection to an electrode(s):

(1) Interior metal water piping located not more than 1.52 m
(5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be
permitted to be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes
that are part of the grounding electrode system.

 

[John120/240]

How does a water bib/spigot satisfy this?

250.68(C) Metallic Water Pipe and Structural Metal. Grounding
electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted
to be connected at the following locations and used
to extend the connection to an electrode(s):

(1) Interior metal water piping located not more than 1.52 m
(5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be
permitted to be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes
that are part of the grounding electrode system.

How does a water bib/spigot satisfy this ?
It doesn't. Apparently the OP has not read or does not fully understand 250.68(C) The hose bib must be the easiest closest point to get to.

 

[Smart $]

How does a water bib/spigot satisfy this ?
It doesn't. Apparently the OP has not read or does not fully understand 250.68(C) The hose bib must be the easiest closest point to get to.

Actually 250.52(A)(1) has to be satisfied first, before 250.68(C) even comes into play...

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.

(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.

(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground
water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or
more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and
electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by
bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the
points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and
the bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s), if installed.

 

[mjf]

Actually 250.52(A)(1) has to be satisfied first, before 250.68(C) even comes into play...

Weird that the insp. only called for bonding of the water line and nothing else. I'd think there would be other things (intersystem bonding bridge comes to mind) not up to code if there is no water bond.

 

[kwired]

What is wanted in OP is not all that clear, it just says a water bond. Is there underground metallic piping that qualifies as a grounding electrode? Maybe inspector only wants interior piping system bonded, in that case you can run to any convenient place to bond it. If the piping is an electrode then it must be bonded within 5 feet of entry to the structure.

 

[James S.]

How does a water bib/spigot satisfy this?

250.68(C) Metallic Water Pipe and Structural Metal. Grounding
electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted
to be connected at the following locations and used
to extend the connection to an electrode(s):

(1) Interior metal water piping located not more than 1.52 m
(5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be
permitted to be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes
that are part of the grounding electrode system.

How does a water bib/spigot satisfy this ?
It doesn't. Apparently the OP has not read or does not fully understand 250.68(C) The hose bib must be the easiest closest point to get to.

Actually 250.52(A)(1) has to be satisfied first, before 250.68(C) even comes into play...

Weird that the insp. only called for bonding of the water line and nothing else. I'd think there would be other things (intersystem bonding bridge comes to mind) not up to code if there is no water bond.

The hose bib happens to be the closest/easiest place. It also happens to be the service. But even if it wasn't, there are already ground rods in place at the main panel. Would 250.52 or 250.68 even apply? It is my understanding (and Lord knows I have never felt confidant with grounding vs bonding) that bonding the water pipes is just to create a fault if the copper pipes were to become energized. Am I way off on that?

btw...All the correction note calls for is "Bond water piping"

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Is the water pipe an electrode-- 10 feet of metal pipe in the ground?

 

[kwired]

The hose bib happens to be the closest/easiest place. It also happens to be the service. But even if it wasn't, there are already ground rods in place at the main panel. Would 250.52 or 250.68 even apply? It is my understanding (and Lord knows I have never felt confidant with grounding vs bonding) that bonding the water pipes is just to create a fault if the copper pipes were to become energized. Am I way off on that?

btw...All the correction note calls for is "Bond water piping"

Yes bonding of interior piping is primarily to clear faults should the piping become energized. If the piping is also metallic continuous into 10 feet or more of earth, that portion is also considered a grounding electrode and must be bonded within 5 feet of entry into the building.

Can you clarify how a hose bibb is the water service?

 

[James S.]

Yes bonding of interior piping is primarily to clear faults should the piping become energized. If the piping is also metallic continuous into 10 feet or more of earth, that portion is also considered a grounding electrode and must be bonded within 5 feet of entry into the building.

Can you clarify how a hose bibb is the water service?

I have no way of knowing if it is copper all the way to the meter. I would guess it is.



This is not the house in question but is basically the same.

 

[James S.]

Is the water pipe an electrode-- 10 feet of metal pipe in the ground?

I assume it is but am not sure.

 

[growler]

there are already ground rods in place at the main panel. It is my understanding (and Lord knows I have never felt confidant with grounding vs bonding) that bonding the water pipes is just to create a fault if the copper pipes were to become energized. Am I way off on that?

btw...All the correction note calls for is "Bond water piping"

"bond water piping"?

You said this was a really old house. Many of these old houses have pieced togather plumbing with a combination of copper and PVC pipes.

Here if they wanted the pipes bonded you would have to jumper around the pressure reduction valve , bond hot and cold at water heater and jumper any breaks in the copper piping where PVC may have been used .

In other words you would check out the water pipes to make sure they are bonded (many are not). Make sure that if any copper becomes energized that it will clear a fault.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

That looks like the typical water service in the warmer parts of AZ. The meter is out at the street and if it's an older service, chances are it's copper all the way to the meter. It would certainly count as an electrode and the connection can be made right below the hose bib.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Just connect to the pipe sticking out of the wall. I can't imagine that is an issue

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Just connect to the pipe sticking out of the wall. I can't imagine that is an issue

I agree with that, Dennis.

 

[Smart $]

Just connect to the pipe sticking out of the wall. I can't imagine that is an issue

I agree with that, Dennis.

It would have to be on the inside to be compliant. Code [250.68(C)] calls for connection to interior metal water pipe...

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It would have to be on the inside to be compliant. Code [250.68(C)] calls for connection to interior metal water pipe...

I know....but it is connected to the interior pipe and I think that's what they want...........who knows

 

[Gregg Harris]

It would have to be on the inside to be compliant. Code [250.68(C)] calls for connection to interior metal water pipe...

250.68(C) is giving permission to connect to the interior water line and if that choice is made then it must be within the first five feet excluding the exception.

(A) Accessibility. All mechanical elements used to terminate a grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to a grounding electrode shall be accessible.

(C) Metallic Water Pipe and Structural Metal. Grounding electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted to be connected at the following locations and used to extend the connection to an electrode(s):

Interior metal water piping located not more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be permitted to be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.