Inspector classifying stairway landing as a hallway....Grrrrrr

[Dennis Alwon]

A landing must be at least 3' wide but let's be realistic-- are you going to set up chairs or couch's on the landing and make it livable. I don't buy it as habitable space however I would probably have installed a receptacle there just because it is so wide.

If the stairway landing was 8' long would you require it to follow the code minimum for wall space. Why call it a hallway you may as well call it wall space-- This is absurd IMO.

 

[kwired]

A landing must be at least 3' wide but let's be realistic-- are you going to set up chairs or couch's on the landing and make it livable. I don't buy it as habitable space however I would probably have installed a receptacle there just because it is so wide.

If the stairway landing was 8' long would you require it to follow the code minimum for wall space. Why call it a hallway you may as well call it wall space-- This is absurd IMO.

More than once I have been asked why I did not put a receptacle on a landing that was only roughly 4x4 maybe 4x6 max. Darn decorators, my wife included. Now I just automatically put at least one receptacle at such spaces.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I added one on our landing so that I could plug in a night light and it was a better place to plug in the vacume too.

 

[Coastal]

this landing is 12 feet long, how wide is it?

If you had say a 12 x 12 area what is to keep you from calling this a habitable room? If it is only 3 or 4 feet wide, it could be understandable to call it a hallway, a landing, or just uninhabitable space, but how wide does it have to be to get out of that classification? Some houses have hallways, landings, etc. that are larger than true habitable rooms in other houses.

The landing is as wide as the stairs (3') and straddles the elevator shaft. The landing runs behind the elevator shaft with the stairs going up (or down) on either side. The inspector was OK with running conduit up the elevator shaft ( I was able to tap into a receptacle beneath the 1st floor landing) and installing a receptacle on the back wall of the shaft facing into the landing. The elevator has yet to be installed. Only took me and my helper (son) around 3 hours start to finish so it wasn't too bad; just a pain.

 

[eprice]

The landing is as wide as the stairs (3') and straddles the elevator shaft. The landing runs behind the elevator shaft with the stairs going up (or down) on either side. The inspector was OK with running conduit up the elevator shaft ( I was able to tap into a receptacle beneath the 1st floor landing) and installing a receptacle on the back wall of the shaft facing into the landing. The elevator has yet to be installed. Only took me and my helper (son) around 3 hours start to finish so it wasn't too bad; just a pain.

So this space connects the stairs and the elevator? If so, I would consider it a hallway, not just a landing.

 

[Coastal]

So this space connects the stairs and the elevator? If so, I would consider it a hallway, not just a landing.

No......The elevator runs between the flights of stairs and the landings run behind the back wall of the shaft. the elevator has nothing to do with the stairs.

 

[roger]

The landing is as wide as the stairs (3') and straddles the elevator shaft. The landing runs behind the elevator shaft with the stairs going up (or down) on either side. The inspector was OK with running conduit up the elevator shaft ( I was able to tap into a receptacle beneath the 1st floor landing) and installing a receptacle on the back wall of the shaft facing into the landing. The elevator has yet to be installed. Only took me and my helper (son) around 3 hours start to finish so it wasn't too bad; just a pain.

Not wanting to be a bearer of bad news and I haven't done a residential elevator since the early 80's so I am not sure but, if this were a commercial elevator the shaft and machine rooms are off limits to any and all other wiring that does not directly pertain to the elevator. This would be cited by the DOL inspector.


Roger

 

[david]

The landing is as wide as the stairs (3') and straddles the elevator shaft. The landing runs behind the elevator shaft with the stairs going up (or down) on either side.

Do you go up a section of stairs hit a landing walk past the back side of the elevator then continue up a second section of stairs what do you mean you can go up or down on either side of the elevator shaft?

Is this two separate stair cases being separated by this hall/ landing? I am still not sure what you mean by either side.

 

[Coastal]

Do you go up a section of stairs hit a landing walk past the back side of the elevator then continue up a second section of stairs what do you mean you can go up or down on either side of the elevator shaft?

Is this two separate stair cases being separated by this hall/ landing? I am still not sure what you mean by either side.

Yes....standing at the foot of the steps, elevator door is at the left....go up 8 or so steps and get to the landing...turn left and proceed 6 to 8 feet on the landing....turn left again and proceed up 8 or so steps and get to a "real hallway"(lol), turn left again and proceed by elevator door to the foot of the next set of steps....rinse and repeat 2 more times.

 

[jumper]

Not wanting to be a bearer of bad news and I haven't done a residential elevator since the early 80's so I am not sure but, if this were a commercial elevator the shaft and machine rooms are off limits to any and all other wiring that does not directly pertain to the elevator. This would be cited by the DOL inspector.


Roger

I do not see any exception for residential.

620.37 Wiring in Hoistways, Machine Rooms, Control
Rooms, Machinery Spaces, and Control Spaces.
(A) Uses Permitted. Only such electrical wiring, raceways,
and cables used directly in connection with the elevator or
dumbwaiter, including wiring for signals, for communication
with the car, for lighting, heating, air conditioning, and ventilating
the elevator car, for fire detecting systems, for pit sump
pumps, and for heating, lighting, and ventilating the hoistway,
shall be permitted inside the hoistway, machine rooms, control
rooms, machinery spaces, and control spaces.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Basically he has an elevator that goes from 1st to 2nd floor. It does not open on the stair landing. When you walk up to the 2nd floor the elevator door is on the left. Most stairwells have just a large dead space between the sections of steps. This one has the elevator using that space.

 

[Coastal]

I do not see any exception for residential.

620.37 Wiring in Hoistways, Machine Rooms, Control
Rooms, Machinery Spaces, and Control Spaces.
(A) Uses Permitted. Only such electrical wiring, raceways,
and cables used directly in connection with the elevator or
dumbwaiter, including wiring for signals, for communication
with the car, for lighting, heating, air conditioning, and ventilating
the elevator car, for fire detecting systems, for pit sump
pumps, and for heating, lighting, and ventilating the hoistway,
shall be permitted inside the hoistway, machine rooms, control
rooms, machinery spaces, and control spaces.

Go figure, AHJ wants a receptacle on a stairway landing which by his interpretation is a hallway and doesn't care if an actual cited code is violated to achieve the end. (headslap)

 

[jumper]

I do not see any exception for residential.

620.37 Wiring in Hoistways, Machine Rooms, Control
Rooms, Machinery Spaces, and Control Spaces.
(A) Uses Permitted. Only such electrical wiring, raceways,
and cables used directly in connection with the elevator or
dumbwaiter, including wiring for signals, for communication
with the car, for lighting, heating, air conditioning, and ventilating
the elevator car, for fire detecting systems, for pit sump
pumps, and for heating, lighting, and ventilating the hoistway,
shall be permitted inside the hoistway, machine rooms, control
rooms, machinery spaces, and control spaces.

I meant to say:

I also do not see any exception for residential. As in, I agree.

 

[jumper]

Go figure, AHJ wants a receptacle on a stairway landing which by his interpretation is a hallway and doesn't care if an actual cited code is violated to achieve the end. (headslap)

Actually, while I agree that the new circuit routing is a violation, I am not entirely convinced that the receptacle is not required.

The evidence and opinions seem to swing that way, but a 12' landing is not real common in most houses I have seen.

Personally, I would have installed one in the beginning, code or not.

 

[north star]

: - :

"Go figure, AHJ wants a receptacle on a stairway landing which by his interpretation is
a hallway and doesn't care if an actual cited code is violated to achieve the end. (headslap)"

We still do not know if there were any approved plans to describe/
define the stairway landing [ or Hallway area ]......Also, since you
asked, I believe the correct concensus was / is, that your area
in question is indeed a Hallway [ by definition in the IRC ], and
since you agreed with the Forum' input, you installed conduit in
a non-allowed location to comply with the inspector' interpretation
of the code.

I would respectfully ask "why did you install a violation of Article
620.37" ?.......Also, are you responsible for code compliance on
your work, or is the inspector responsible for code compliance
on your work ?........IMO, ...it is your work and you should have
asked for an interpretation by the AHJ BEFORE the gyp. board
was installed, rather than blaming the inspector now for [ what
appears to be ] your oversight.......Again, were there any
approved set of plans for this project ?

We inspectors get blamed a heck of a lot for not knowing the
myriad of codes, or misapplying the code, or making up codes
and on and on and on......Shouldn't you have known the code
and the application as well BEFORE assuming ?.....We
inspectors are expected to know every single code and their
various applications whenever we go to an inspection.
Shouldn't the various trades also be required to know their
own trades rather than playing "the blame game", or if they
do not know, ...why not give the AHJ a call for an interpretation!

Stepping down off of my soapbox... Let the stoning begin !

: - :

 

[jumper]

: - :

We still do not know if there were any approved plans to describe/
define the stairway landing [ or Hallway area ]......Also, since you
asked, I believe the correct concensus was / is, that your area
in question is indeed a Hallway [ by definition in the IRC ], and
since you agreed with the Forum' input, you installed conduit in
a non-allowed location to comply with the inspector' interpretation
of the code.

I would respectfully ask "why did you install a violation of Article
620.37" ?.......Also, are you responsible for code compliance on
your work, or is the inspector responsible for code compliance
on your work ?........IMO, ...it is your work and you should have
asked for an interpretation by the AHJ BEFORE the gyp. board
was installed, rather than blaming the inspector now for [ what
appears to be ] your oversight.......Again, were there any
approved set of plans for this project ?

We inspectors get blamed a heck of a lot for not knowing the
myriad of codes, or misapplying the code, or making up codes
and on and on and on......Shouldn't you have known the code
and the application as well BEFORE assuming ?.....We
inspectors are expected to know every single code and their
various applications whenever we go to an inspection.
Shouldn't the various trades also be required to know their
own trades rather than playing "the blame game", or if they
do not know, ...why not give the AHJ a call for an interpretation!

Stepping down off of my soapbox... Let the stoning begin !

: - :

Nice post North.

Now...quick...duck......

 

[Coastal]

: - :

We still do not know if there were any approved plans to describe/
define the stairway landing [ or Hallway area ]......Also, since you
asked, I believe the correct concensus was / is, that your area
in question is indeed a Hallway [ by definition in the IRC ], and
since you agreed with the Forum' input, you installed conduit in
a non-allowed location to comply with the inspector' interpretation
of the code.

I would respectfully ask "why did you install a violation of Article
620.37" ?.......Also, are you responsible for code compliance on
your work, or is the inspector responsible for code compliance
on your work ?........IMO, ...it is your work and you should have
asked for an interpretation by the AHJ BEFORE the gyp. board
was installed, rather than blaming the inspector now for [ what
appears to be ] your oversight.......Again, were there any
approved set of plans for this project ?

We inspectors get blamed a heck of a lot for not knowing the
myriad of codes, or misapplying the code, or making up codes
and on and on and on......Shouldn't you have known the code
and the application as well BEFORE assuming ?.....We
inspectors are expected to know every single code and their
various applications whenever we go to an inspection.
Shouldn't the various trades also be required to know their
own trades rather than playing "the blame game", or if they
do not know, ...why not give the AHJ a call for an interpretation!

Stepping down off of my soapbox... Let the stoning begin !

: - :

First off....the GC communicated with the AHJ as to how to resolve the problem of no receptacle on the landings. The AHJ told the GC that the elevator shaft could be utilized for the installation of the outlets provided they were in conduit. I have complied with the AHJ on all occasions and don't see how I am at fault with what should have been a non issue to begin with.

 

[GoldDigger]

... inside the hoistway, machine rooms, control
rooms, machinery spaces, and control spaces.

Surface wiring outside the shaft/hoistway should be just fine. But it does sound like the OP was running it inside.
How was the wiring run to the outlet "below" the first floor that the new outlet extended from? Was it a maintenance receptacle for elevator servicing, in which case there is another potential problem?

 

[cowboyjwc]

: - :

We still do not know if there were any approved plans to describe/
define the stairway landing [ or Hallway area ]......Also, since you
asked, I believe the correct concensus was / is, that your area
in question is indeed a Hallway [ by definition in the IRC ], and
since you agreed with the Forum' input, you installed conduit in
a non-allowed location to comply with the inspector' interpretation
of the code.

I would respectfully ask "why did you install a violation of Article
620.37" ?.......Also, are you responsible for code compliance on
your work, or is the inspector responsible for code compliance
on your work ?........IMO, ...it is your work and you should have
asked for an interpretation by the AHJ BEFORE the gyp. board
was installed, rather than blaming the inspector now for [ what
appears to be ] your oversight.......Again, were there any
approved set of plans for this project ?

We inspectors get blamed a heck of a lot for not knowing the
myriad of codes, or misapplying the code, or making up codes
and on and on and on......Shouldn't you have known the code
and the application as well BEFORE assuming ?.....We
inspectors are expected to know every single code and their
various applications whenever we go to an inspection.
Shouldn't the various trades also be required to know their
own trades rather than playing "the blame game", or if they
do not know, ...why not give the AHJ a call for an interpretation!

Stepping down off of my soapbox... Let the stoning begin !

: - :

:thumbsup: I'll stand next to you.

I had a guy add receptacles to a full granite back splash in a kitchen and two in a bedroom, where he made the closet wall space instead of a closet. This was at final and when he started screaming and hollering that it had been approved at rough, I said were you cabinets in at rough, if not how was the inspector supposed to know where you exactly needed receptacles and don't your plans call for a closet in the other room? No and yes were his answers. Do you know where receptacles are required? Yes. Well then, they were approved at rough, yes, by another inspector, don't have the electrical inspector come out at final and think that I'm going to sign it.

 

[Coastal]

I will review the thread......I did the same house a few years prior in the same jurisdiction inspected by the same AHJ. No receptacles were installed on the landings and none were required because they were landings, not hallways. If they were hallways, the AHJ would have determined them as such and receptacles would have been installed. All was well and good....CO went smooth as butter. Same scenario a few yeas later but now, ......at final......landings are no longer landings but hallways. I'm not going to butt my head against the wall and fight a losing battle. I will bow to the wishes of the powers that be and comply with their recommendations and live to fight another day, hopefully in a battle of my choosing!