POCO and Voltage Drop Disagreement

[A-1Sparky]

I'm having an issue with a stubborn POCO. I have to run my service conductors about 500' to a 200 amp residential panel, but I'm being told by a POCO rep. that they limit secondary conductor length to 250' !!! There is already a padmount trans. on site with POCO-owned meter cans adjacent to it. My plan was to run 250kcmil aluminum triplex in 2 1/2" pipe from the meter to the house. Their plan is to extend the primary from the trans. through my property via a 25' wide easement, set another padmount trans. on my property less than 250' from the house, and then run the secondary conductors from there. I haven't gotten an estimate yet, but are these people crazy?!
I'm even willing to upsize my pipe and parallel 4/0s if necessary. This is going to be a 1,000 sq. ft. house with propane heat and stove. The most significant load will be the dryer. I don't want to piss these people off, but how do I tactfully make them listen to reason? Anyone else experience this, and what did you have to do? :rant:

 

[mbrooke]

POCOs arent the best at bussiness skills or electrical engineering:happysad: But, there is a possibility that they may know that the padmount cant handle anymore load or is on the border of an appropriate lower value voltage limit. Other than that the 250 foot rule pure nonsence. My guess the 250 foot rule was put in place at one time to combat voltage drop based on the minimum sized conducters they run, but without engineering now knowing the reasoning behind it.


If pad loading is an issue they are better off just replaceing the pad with a larger one than setting two in place and extending the primary. Marginal voltage being an issue they can adjust the taps, or set a small regulator at the riser pole. Adding another pad would be my last resort. The only time a pad would be justifiable is if a bunch of new houses bloomed right around it within the next 10 years and they are the ones paying for it.

The best thing you can do is on paper with mathematical equations show them what the voltage drop will be under the worst case demand factor with your sized conducters. Throw in ohms perfooot and the temprature rise as well. Letting them know your thing wont hurt.


The head or one of the top enginneers will probably your best luck.

 

[A-1Sparky]

This transformer is for 3 homes and three homes only. Currently, there is only one home on it. Mine would be home #2. There is the possibility of one more home being added in the distant future. It was sized for 3 very large homes with significant loads, so there's no problem there. When I speak with someone at the POCO again, I plan on mentioning tapping my secondaries at a higher voltage. I'm not 100% sure that the trans. has taps, but I would bet that it does. If they tapped it at 250 volts and I ran 250s, it would be more than adequate, but I'm not sure if they'll go for it.
I was told that I could make a case to the board, and they might possibly allow for an exception. I plan on going that route if necessary. The part that really irks me is that they set their meter cans right next to their transformer, knowing full well that the other two homes would be more than 250' away. If the third home is ever built, and if they continue with their great ideas, they would have to add a third transformer, as the house site is over 1,500' away. I'd hate to have to pay for that one!

 

[Jbird66]

Sometimes it is tough to convince the POCO on these things.

Would it be possible for you to set a pedestal meter at the 250.ft distance from the transform?

Then the POCO gets their way and have not violated their 250 ft limit and the voltage drop is no llonger their problem since it is on the load side of the meter.

 

[mbrooke]

Setting your own pedistal is a good idea like said below, but if you cant you should fight this. If the voltage at the pad is high enough there is no need to tap higher, as long as the voltage at the house is within limits.


If it makes you feel better there was a case around here where a group of older homes were 370 feet away from overhead poles by the street. All 120/240 secondaries from pole top units. New house at the same distance was being built right next to them, poco kept nagging for a primary overhead or URD by the drive way and a pad right by the house:roll: They gave in eventually when we convinced them that it would be cheaper in the end, but not with a lot of talking.

 

[suemarkp]

Can you change the service delivery point to some place on your property that is 249' from the pole and still a reasonable location to red the meter? Then, put in a disconnect and the wires are now yours for the rest of the way.

 

[A-1Sparky]

The way it stands now, the POCO's secondaries from the trans to the meter are only going to be about 20' long. My (customer-owned) wires from the load side of the meter to the house are going to be about 460-480' long. It seems to me that if I have low voltage issues on my end due to inadequate wire sizing, that's my problem to live with. POCO shouldn't have any say in that.

I already have one transformer on my property, and I definitely don't want another one, especially less than 250' from the house. There really is no good place to put one anyway. And besides, they already have (1) 25' easement on my lot...I don't want to give them another one. I'm going to type up a nice detailed load calc. along with voltage drop at calculated load, and then throw in manufacturers' voltage range recommendations for their equipment (fridge, microwave, washer/dryer, etc.). I'm not sure what more to do.:happysad:

 

[mbrooke]

One possible thing poped up, it could be that they are concerned for your wiring in that they are afraid of the customer complaining to them about the voltage drop, hence they are trying to avoid liability. But techinically there are ways around that. Also if the cable burns up there is less for the customer to replace on there end. But again those are trivial reasons.


I would go for the load calc letter with voltage drop comparisions from no load to full load explaining your reasoning.

 

[A-1Sparky]

Yeah, apparently the whole reason for the 25-year-old policy is due to past low voltage issues on the customers' ends. But, I can pretty much guarantee that they didn't do load calcs. and probably ran as small of a wire that they could get away with.

 

[mbrooke]

Yeah, apparently the whole reason for the 25-year-old policy is due to past low voltage issues on the customers' ends. But, I can pretty much guarantee that they didn't do load calcs. and probably ran as small of a wire that they could get away with.

BINGO:thumbsup:

 

[templdl]

Maybe this may make some sense:
If the transformer is dedicated to this service ask the POCO if there a primary taps of the transformer. Commonly there should be +(2)2-1/2% and -(4)2-1/2% taps. They can simply correct for your voltage drop be changing the primary taps compensating for up to 10% should you inform them of what voltage drop you have to contend with. But remember that you voltage drop will change relative to the load. With no load you may find that you have a negligible voltage drop and as such you may have to compromise between full load and no load.

 

[A-1Sparky]

This transformer is for 3 homes and three homes only. Currently, there is only one home on it. Mine would be home #2. There is the possibility of one more home being added in the distant future. It was sized for 3 very large homes with significant loads, so there's no problem there. When I speak with someone at the POCO again, I plan on mentioning tapping my secondaries at a higher voltage.

 

[robbietan]

I'm having an issue with a stubborn POCO. I have to run my service conductors about 500' to a 200 amp residential panel, but I'm being told by a POCO rep. that they limit secondary conductor length to 250' !!! There is already a padmount trans. on site with POCO-owned meter cans adjacent to it. My plan was to run 250kcmil aluminum triplex in 2 1/2" pipe from the meter to the house. Their plan is to extend the primary from the trans. through my property via a 25' wide easement, set another padmount trans. on my property less than 250' from the house, and then run the secondary conductors from there. I haven't gotten an estimate yet, but are these people crazy?!
I'm even willing to upsize my pipe and parallel 4/0s if necessary. This is going to be a 1,000 sq. ft. house with propane heat and stove. The most significant load will be the dryer. I don't want to piss these people off, but how do I tactfully make them listen to reason? Anyone else experience this, and what did you have to do? :rant:

boy, your poco guys sure know how to spend money (theirs and yours). the poco here wouldnt dream of extending service inside customer property especially if they have to outlay money for it.

is the padmount big enough to serve? if it is, there is no reason to add another, it will be additional systems loss that the utility has to bear

 

[A-1Sparky]

boy, your poco guys sure know how to spend money (theirs and yours). the poco here wouldnt dream of extending service inside customer property especially if they have to outlay money for it.

is the padmount big enough to serve? if it is, there is no reason to add another, it will be additional systems loss that the utility has to bear

Trans. capacity is not an issue...however, POCO stubbornness is. I just don't get it.

 

[Hv&Lv]

This transformer is for 3 homes and three homes only. Currently, there is only one home on it. Mine would be home #2. There is the possibility of one more home being added in the distant future. It was sized for 3 very large homes with significant loads, so there's no problem there. When I speak with someone at the POCO again, I plan on mentioning tapping my secondaries at a higher voltage.

If that is possible with the XF that is there, and I doubt if it is, it will also affect the others voltage.

Sounds like you have talked to someone that has misinterpreted an engineers statement. We install the secondary services for our customers, and we normally limit our services to 250 feet. It helps to lessen the chances of dimming lights with 2/0 al. wire. That is the normal complaint we hear an 400 foot services. And to get someone to sign something does little good when the house is sold.
Now in your circumstance, I agree with the others and do not understand why they are being so difficult. After the meter is yours anyway.

 

[weressl]

Sometimes it is tough to convince the POCO on these things.

Would it be possible for you to set a pedestal meter at the 250.ft distance from the transform?

Then the POCO gets their way and have not violated their 250 ft limit and the voltage drop is no llonger their problem since it is on the load side of the meter.

I think you got to the core issue of the 250' limit: how much voltage drop is the POCO willing to eat. Conversely you can offer the upsized conductors, but the question remains if their equipment lugs can accomodate the upsized conductors and/or willing to allow downsized butt splices just before the connection point(room?).

 

[A-1Sparky]

If that is possible with the XF that is there, and I doubt if it is, it will also affect the others voltage.

Sounds like you have talked to someone that has misinterpreted an engineers statement. We install the secondary services for our customers, and we normally limit our services to 250 feet. It helps to lessen the chances of dimming lights with 2/0 al. wire. That is the normal complaint we hear an 400 foot services. And to get someone to sign something does little good when the house is sold.
Now in your circumstance, I agree with the others and do not understand why they are being so difficult. After the meter is yours anyway.

So you're saying that the trans. probably doesn't have voltage taps for adjustment? I guess that I was just assuming that it probably did.

 

[A-1Sparky]

I think you got to the core issue of the 250' limit: how much voltage drop is the POCO willing to eat. Conversely you can offer the upsized conductors, but the question remains if their equipment lugs can accomodate the upsized conductors and/or willing to allow downsized butt splices just before the connection point(room?).

Meter can lugs will accept up to 300kcmil, so conductor size shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Smart $]

So you're saying that the trans. probably doesn't have voltage taps for adjustment? I guess that I was just assuming that it probably did.

I don't think it will matter even if the transformer does have voltage taps. With potentially three households/services connected, it will affect all three. I doubt the POCO would be willing to do that.

 

[A-1Sparky]

I don't think it will matter even if the transformer does have voltage taps. With potentially three households/services connected, it will affect all three. I doubt the POCO would be willing to do that.

Even around 5 or so volts? Seems to me that would benefit all connected homes, as voltage under load would be closer to 240 and 245 volts shouldn't have any adverse affects on equipment when loads are lower.