well pump circuit tripping intermittently

[AV ELECTRIC]

i am going out to a job tomorrow a bit of a drive to look at a circuit for a well pump tripping intermittently from what the customer says actually while talking to him on the phone the pump was running. another electrician came out and replaced the breaker which did not help the pump was replaced 2 years ago

the pump is above ground actually in his garage that pumps the water up to a holding tank which then is gravity fed back to the house i would presume i told him to leave the breaker off until i get there in the morning so hopefully there will be some demand for the pump to come on go through its cycle and the turn off

of course it would be so much easier if the breaker would not reset i dont have allot of experience with troubleshooting wells but it does not seem to be that complex so any ideas of what to look for would be very helpful dont think there is any underground wiring since the pump is in the garage and the panel is near by but of coarse i am just speculating talking to the customer on the phone

 

[Rewire]

take your megger with you.

 

[AV ELECTRIC]

yep will check the wires don't think they are underground being the house is modular and attached garage where the pump is located but you never know being site unseen

maybe the tripping occurs after the pump has been on for sometime which appears what maybe occurring the thing with this type of work it blends with plumbing being the pump pressure switches and valves i would think any increased demand on the pump could lead to problems

i will do an amp check for a bit to see if there is any strain on the pump motor if the wiring checks out look at the contacts on the pressure switch and check connections on pump motor after that if nothing is detected maybe the pressure switch is failing or the 2 year pump is and if so what is causing the premature failure

its just a single 20 amp circuit feeding the pump

 

[Rewire]

he may have to small a pump motor

 

[qcroanoke]

Pump could be going bad or controller.
Windings or such other things.
If there is a motor shop nearby that would be my first stop with the pump and controller after I had eliminated everything else.

 

[mjf]

Sounds like a jet pump, so you should be able to access all electrical parts/wiring/controls/pump.

Is the breaker tripping the only symptom?

Is the pump running continuously for too long of a time until the breaker trips? If so, check the pressure switch for proper operation. Or could be a bad foot valve (plumbing issue).

Is it a 220 motor wired at 110?

 

[Little Bill]

I don't have any experience with pumps being in a garage, or above ground for that matter. But I do know if the system has a pressure tank, it can become "water logged".

The tank needs some air in it to aid the pump motor so it doesn't cycle on/off so much that it wears on the motor.

One way to tell is to turn on a faucet, ideally close to the pump, but anywhere if you have a helper. If the pump starts immediately when the faucet is open and shuts off as soon as the faucet is turned off, the tank is probably "water logged".
Since the tripping is intermittent, that would make sense if the motor is over worked on occasion.

You would need to turn off power to the pump, then drain the tank and then add air, then check to see if it holds pressure.
If it does, bleed the air down to just a few pounds. I can't remember exactly, but somewhere around 2-4 psi. You might want to check on this amount to be sure.

Turn the pump back on and refill the tank. Turn the faucet on again. The pump shouldn't come on until the level is down to where the pressure switch is set.
Do this (faucet on/off) a few times to see if this takes care of the problem.

This is just something for you to keep in mind and try should you find the symptoms I described.

This all might be a moot point if the above ground set-up works different than an in-ground pump and pressure tank.

 

[AV ELECTRIC]

very possible the pump is undersized no rewind shop anywhere close to check out the wingdings this is the dilemma i can only go so far with things i would think depending on the water line feeding the tank if galvanized and with hard water deposits this pipe can have a shrinking diameter or depending if there is some filtration device to remove sediments and may have a problem this is where you may blend pluming with that electrical problem and if proper calcs were not done from the beginning the system may always have problems

do you call a electrician a plumber or a well guy . the last electrician replaced a breaker don't know who replaced the pump 2 years ago so i am the third wheel and its very possible i may leave and the problem might not be solved because it is intermittent and just not properly designed

so we shall see we know the reason why a breaker trips just have to determine the reason and correct

 

[AV ELECTRIC]

I don't have any experience with pumps being in a garage, or above ground for that matter. But I do know if the system has a pressure tank, it can become "water logged".

The tank needs some air in it to aid the pump motor so it doesn't cycle on/off so much that it wears on the motor.

One way to tell is to turn on a faucet, ideally close to the pump, but anywhere if you have a helper. If the pump starts immediately when the faucet is open and shuts off as soon as the faucet is turned off, the tank is probably "water logged".
Since the tripping is intermittent, that would make sense if the motor is over worked on occasion.

You would need to turn off power to the pump, then drain the tank and then add air, then check to see if it holds pressure.
If it does, bleed the air down to just a few pounds. I can't remember exactly, but somewhere around 2-4 psi. You might want to check on this amount to be sure.

Turn the pump back on and refill the tank. Turn the faucet on again. The pump shouldn't come on until the level is down to where the pressure switch is set.
Do this (faucet on/off) a few times to see if this takes care of the problem.

This is just something for you to keep in mind and try should you find the symptoms I described.

This all might be a moot point if the above ground set-up works different than an in-ground pump and pressure tank.

that is something i did think about and is this pump cycling on and off quite a bit i think he does have a holding tank and using gravity to feed the the house the pump delivers the water to the tank so i would think the pump would not come on demand just 2 people living there no yard to water just the needs of the house

 

[ActionDave]

that is something i did think about and is this pump cycling on and off quite a bit i think he does have a holding tank and using gravity to feed the the house the pump delivers the water to the tank so i would think the pump would not come on demand just 2 people living there no yard to water just the needs of the house

A typical set up would be an underground well pump to a cistern then to a jet pump and pressure tank.

What Little Bill said is correct, if the jet pump cycles on when a faucet is turned on then there is a problem with the pressure tank. Look around for a pressure gauge. The pressure should drop down to around twenty pounds before the pump cuts in and should cut out around fifty or sixty pounds.

Check the pump and make sure it is set up for the correct supply voltage. If it is a dual voltage pump it will likely be pre-wired 220V.

 

[kwired]

What is tripping? Breaker? Motor overload?

What is running current? Compare that to motor rated current.

If there is too much flow motor will be overloaded, compensation can be made by putting a restriction in the line. But if that means not enough flow for demand then you still need to get a larger pump/motor if you want that demand. If lines have deposits in them that effectively make them smaller, that actually lessens the load on the pump.

Knowing if this is a submersible or above ground, and method of control will help us know more about what you have. Gravity feed systems are not very common around here especially for a single dwelling system.

 

[iwire]

What is tripping? Breaker? Motor overload?

What is running current? Compare that to motor rated current.

If there is too much flow motor will be overloaded, compensation can be made by putting a restriction in the line. But if that means not enough flow for demand then you still need to get a larger pump/motor if you want that demand.

Knowing if this is a submersible or above ground, and method of control will help us know more about what you have. Gravity feed systems are not very common around here especially for a single dwelling system.

All good questions and points.

 

[AV ELECTRIC]

thanks everyone excellent suggestions if the thermal overloads on the motor are not tripping you would think the motor is fine and if it is the breake it maybe a partial short somewhere along the line i have seen many a underground wiring smolder to a point things can run for a bit then trip as the load is raised take a smell in the conduit to smell the aroma of burning insulation in water the pvc prevents that direct instantaneous trip and have more of an arching situation until neutral and hot make contact

let you know what i find hopefully something simple as most things are but nice to know the other things to check if its not so simple we like to solve the problems for the customer and we all go out of our comfort zone at times thats why we do what we do and oh yes make a living and provide for our family

 

[AV ELECTRIC]

well went to the job and the well wasn't really a well but actually city water out in a rural area

the water was supplied to a water storage tank basically for water to supply for a fire and to supply the house

the pump in the garage supplied water to a pressure tank all the wiring was in flex conduit # 10 and the pump was 230 volt and was drawing about 10 amps it all looked pretty good but i noticed something on the tank there was a pipe covered with insulation the owner said it was to prevent his pipe from freezing but i noticed there was a weather proof 2 gain box at the top and what looked like a pressure switch attached .hmmm took the cover off the switch # 12 wires and noticed the weather proof box had a horn attached to it the owner said yes that thing went off when the water level was low

so the conduit feeding the alarm system was galvanized wires did not look good so it appears that was the problem not what i was expecting thanks for the info you guys were wright in a roundabout way

 

[renosteinke]

There are almost too many 'maybes,' without looking at the specific system.

For example, there may be an 'accumulator' in the plumbing. This is a small tank with an air-filled bladder inside. It's there to prevent water hammer, and to prevent the pump from pumping against a closed valve. If this bladder has leaked, and the tank is full of water - there's a possible cause.

That's in addition to all the other causes others have mentioned.

Or, there might simply be another load on the circuit as well.

 

[AV ELECTRIC]

There are almost too many 'maybes,' without looking at the specific system.

For example, there may be an 'accumulator' in the plumbing. This is a small tank with an air-filled bladder inside. It's there to prevent water hammer, and to prevent the pump from pumping against a closed valve. If this bladder has leaked, and the tank is full of water - there's a possible cause.

That's in addition to all the other causes others have mentioned.

Or, there might simply be another load on the circuit as well.

it appears the underground wires going out to the alarm circuit for low level for the tank were damaged , its on the same circuit as the pump . no call back over a 24 hour period allot easier than expected . definitely something i have not seen before .