Circuit switching assistance

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ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Hello all,

The particulars are that two 3 way switches (or single pole for that matter) is controlling a light (3 lv's in a pool).

A new system is going in that allows for the control of a relay via RF signal to control lighting.

The owner would like the lights to be controlled from both types of switching.

Short of putting in a 3 way (single pole double throw) which would switch between either controlling the lighting from the hard wired 3 way switches OR controlling the lighting via the RF...but not both....

Would anyone have an idea how to control the lights by both the 3 way's and the RF? I'm sitting trying to figure out a way by using a extra relay or two (cube type) with no's and nc's but can't seem to get it.

Any thoughts and is it possible?

Thank you.
Rich
 
G

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
ritelec said:
Would anyone have an idea how to control the lights by both the 3 way's and the RF? I'm sitting trying to figure out a way by using a extra relay or two (cube type) with no's and nc's but can't seem to get it.

Any thoughts and is it possible?

Thank you.
Rich
Click to expand...

To make this work, the radio controlled switch (or the relays driven by it) can serve as a three way (single pole double throw) switch if they are installed at one or the other end of the switch string. Or the radio controlled switch (or the relays driven by it) can serve as a four way (double-pole double-throw crossover) switch if placed in the middle of the line of switches.

To use the remote to turn the lights on, you have to try both the on and the off buttons for that circuit to see which one does what you want.

To get anything more complicated than that, your remote switch will have to monitor current or voltage in a way that lets it flip the relay if the lights are off when you push the on button or leave it alone if it is on when you push the remote on button. That can be done just with relays, but a PLC would make it easier.

There will be a small problem resulting from this if the remote control has an "all on" function because it will not know which position of the switch will turn the lights on.

The clean way to do it would be to bypass the existing switches inside their boxes and replace them with additional on/off single channel remote switches.
 
Smart $

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
ritelec said:
Hello all,

The particulars are that two 3 way switches (or single pole for that matter) is controlling a light (3 lv's in a pool).

A new system is going in that allows for the control of a relay via RF signal to control lighting.

The owner would like the lights to be controlled from both types of switching.

Short of putting in a 3 way (single pole double throw) which would switch between either controlling the lighting from the hard wired 3 way switches OR controlling the lighting via the RF...but not both....

Would anyone have an idea how to control the lights by both the 3 way's and the RF? I'm sitting trying to figure out a way by using a extra relay or two (cube type) with no's and nc's but can't seem to get it.

Any thoughts and is it possible?

Thank you.
Rich
Click to expand...
If you plan on putting the relay at either end of the control portion of the circuit, replace the closest 3-way with a 4-way, then wire to relay as if the second 3-way (i.e. 2 travelers between 4-way and relay), and use a SPDT wired same as a 3-way.

If you put the relay in the circuit between the 3-ways, you'll need a DPDT configured like a 4-way.
 
ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
I'm alittle thick..........bare with me, I see where you are going with this but still don't have it.

The relay in the control box (rf) is actually controlling a 2 pole contactor (for pumps and anything to be switched).

I see how your saying to treat it as a 3 way switch, but as mentioned it hasn't hit home yet........

The one three way is in the dwelling, the other is by the pool, both runs go back to the control panel where the contactor is so I would need it to be 4 way??? confused....


single channel remote switching??? interesting, I'll see if the panel manufacturer has that capability. I called their tech today and he mentioned they had nothing for this application.
I could try them again.......or use their contactor as mentioned if I can understand what has been suggested.
 
Last edited:
Smart $

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
ritelec said:
I'm alittle thick..........bare with me, I see where you are going with this but still don't have it.

The relay in the control box (rf) is actually controlling a 2 pole contactor (for pumps and anything to be switched).

I see how your saying to treat it as a 3 way switch, but as mentioned it hasn't hit home yet........
Click to expand...
You won't be able to use a single relay to control both these lights and other equipment.
 
ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Smart $ said:
You won't be able to use a single relay to control both these lights and other equipment.
Click to expand...


Sorry Smart..........the panel supplies 4 contactors to control various equipment.

I would be using one contactor to control the lights.
However, as mentioned, The owner would like the lights controlled by the contactor AND the switches.
 
Smart $

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
ritelec said:
Sorry Smart..........the panel supplies 4 contactors to control various equipment.

I would be using one contactor to control the lights.
However, as mentioned, The owner would like the lights controlled by the contactor AND the switches.
Click to expand...
Are the contacts double throw or just NO/NC?

Here's a diagram of two SPDT's and one DPDT configured as 3- and 4-ways...

relayas3-and4-wayswitches.gif
 
H

hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
I can't see the factory contactor that is controlling other loads as being used for this purpose as one time when the load the contactor is controlling is off, the turning the contactor on will bring the lights on, but if one of the 3-ways is switched then turning the contactor on with turn off the lights, it seems you should use an independent system such as an X-10 or something similar to control the lights independent of the contactor for the pool or you can have a very confused owner who will think hitting the button for the contactor should bring the lights on every time?

Unless this contactor is an extra contactor that was put in the box to control a load of your choice and doesn't have any other load on it and has it's own independent button to control it separately from other loads I don't see how this would work as every time one of the 3-ways or 4-ways are switched to a different position the operation of the lights will change from being turned on by the contactor to being turned off, which to me would be very confusing to a home owner.

Do you have a link to the manufacture of this wireless pool control system that we might take a look at the capabilities of it?

Smarthome.com might even have a system that might interface with the pool system to control the lights separately from the other loads

But we can't guide you unless we know what the system you have can do and how it operates
 
Smart $

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Smart $ said:
Are the contacts double throw or just NO/NC?

Here's a diagram of two SPDT's and one DPDT configured as 3- and 4-ways...

relayas3-and4-wayswitches.gif
Click to expand...
Disregard the 4-way relay configuration. Doesn't work. Made it up a little to hastily.

The SPDT's as 3-ways will work though.

Deleted file from photobucket. Some of you will not even see it.
 
G

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
130516-2217 EDT

My solution is to use a GE RR relay to control the lights. This is a bistable latching relay with a set and a reset coil. Remove the present wall switches and replace with GE switches designed for the GE relays. This means momentary up is always the motion of the lever for on and momentary down is off. Whatever wall switch is used up and down motion of the switch has the same effect no matter which switch is used.

From the contactor in the remote system create a pulse to the GE on coil when the remote transitions to closed, and a different pulse to the GE off coil from the contactor when it transitions to open.

.
 
ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
gar said:
130516-2217 EDT

My solution is to use a GE RR relay to control the lights. This is a bistable latching relay with a set and a reset coil. Remove the present wall switches and replace with GE switches designed for the GE relays. This means momentary up is always the motion of the lever for on and momentary down is off. Whatever wall switch is used up and down motion of the switch has the same effect no matter which switch is used.

From the contactor in the remote system create a pulse to the GE on coil when the remote transitions to closed, and a different pulse to the GE off coil from the contactor when it transitions to open.

.
Click to expand...

will look into this..........
 
ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
eHunter said:
See post #10

Uses the existing 3 way switch, change out the second existing 3 way switch with a 4 way, add a SPDT relay and control that relay with the RF controlled contacts.
Click to expand...

I saw that.......makes sense but I couldn't make sense of it.

Looking at the supplied info for the unit can you see that it would work?
 
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