requirements for smoke and carbon detectors for new addition

[AV ELECTRIC]

i am going to be doing my first addition in maybe 5 years . we are in southern california maybe 200 square ft. no bath just a bedroom.

the question i have is on smoke detectors and the carbon monoxide detector (now required outside of bedrooms). the addition will have to have a carbon monoxide detector outside of the room addition . do you still need a smoke detector also outside of the bedroom addition ? if so can you use a combination smoke and carbon detector?

another question the house was built in the late 80s and only has 2 existing detectors in hallways by bedrooms does that need to be upgraded to carbon monoxide or a combination unit and installation of new detectors in each bedroom and all interconnected?

i see they have these wireless systems that can be interconnected . i was looking at first alert can this be used instead of hard wiring if the house needs to upgraded for smokes and carbon detectors or do they need to be hard wired? can the new smokes and carbon be wireless and just be battery operated in the addition and entire house?

i will talk to the city and see what they say but like to know what others have been doing . thanks

 

[bobbymari]

It really depends on the city in so cal you are in. I have seen it both ways , where hardwiring is required and if there is an attic access or open cielings i/e remodel they also want them linked. Other cities are ok with batt operated c/o detectors. The commanplace seems to be, any job over $1000 they want c/o detects. If you already have smoke detectors in hallways I suggest just replace them with combo units and be done with it. Just run it by the city the work is being done. Which is where by the way?

 

[kwired]

Is there gas appliances in the house?

Don't laugh, I have seen people that wanted CO detectors and there were no gas appliances to produce any CO.

 

[AV ELECTRIC]

its in the city of palmdale and yes there are gas appliances.

i do like the idea of the wireless system , how dependable that is i dont know but they have warranties on the devices at 10 years you could put a lithium battery in it and probably wouldn't need to touch it for years . they are a bit expensive esp[ecially for the combo units but the labor involved in a 2 story house to hard wire every bedroom and hallway maybe more work than wiring up the addition . is work lost due to technology ? yes it is .

 

[wolfman56]

If they use the national building code (everybody does), it requires:
On any project requiring a permit, the smoke detector system will be upgraded to todays standards.

Todays standards, IBC: A smoke detector (regular type) in every bedroom, a detector in the hallway or room just outside the bedroom. If there is gas, or if the garage is attached then the common area detectors need to be combination CO2/ionization type. And they must be hard wired.

The AHJ will make the call whether he makes you hardwire them all. If access is too difficult they let it slide a little.

There are new detectors that you can hard wire (120v), from the nearest source, but they interconnect wirelessly! That would work out great if access is bad.

I always push for following the letter of the law, its more $$ for me and its really the best way to do it. Why encourage lowering a safety standard over a few hundred dollars?

RW

 

[wolfman56]

Is there gas appliances in the house?

Don't laugh, I have seen people that wanted CO detectors and there were no gas appliances to produce any CO.

If there is gas, or if the garage is attached then the common area detectors need to be the combination CO2/ionization type. And they must be hard wired.

I live in an area that is largely electric with no gas, so I looked it up.

RW

 

[GoldDigger]

Is there gas appliances in the house?

Don't laugh, I have seen people that wanted CO detectors and there were no gas appliances to produce any CO.

Attached garage or wood burning fireplace?
Also helps if clueless person brings a barbecue inside.
Improvised heating during power failure?
I would not laugh at all.

 

[kwired]

If they use the national building code (everybody does), it requires:

Everybody does? I don't think so.

If there is gas, or if the garage is attached then the common area detectors need to be the combination CO2/ionization type. And they must be hard wired.

I live in an area that is largely electric with no gas, so I looked it up.

RW

Attached garage or wood burning fireplace?
Also helps if clueless person brings a barbecue inside.
Improvised heating during power failure?
I would not laugh at all.

There is a big difference between a failed heat exchanger on a gas furnace pumping CO into a house and people not knowing it, vs a car pulling in or out of a garage for just a short time and then any CO production is done with. They also require weatherization between the house and attached garage so unless you leave the door open there is minimal CO going to enter the house.

People that bring a barbecue inside - look up Darwins theory it applies well to them.

If you are one that leaves your car running inside with the overhead door closed - also see Darwins theory.

Improvised heating during a power failure - better have battery powered or battery back up CO detectors or they still will do no good.

Wood fireplace? really, when has anyone ever heard of CO problems with those? If you have back drafting pushing CO or more likely CO2 (do CO detectors also detect CO2?) you also have significant smoke along with it.

I can't speak any national recognized codes on placement or requirement of such devices, but a little common sense says if there is no source for CO that it is not really a threat.

We already have too many laws to protect people from their own ignorance or stupidity, when does common sense kick in?

 

[wolfman56]

Originally Posted by wolfman56
If they use the national building code (everybody does), it requires:

Everybody does? I don't think so.

I can't speak any national recognized codes on placement or requirement of such devices, but a little common sense says if there is no source for CO that it is not really a threat.

We already have too many laws to protect people from their own ignorance or stupidity, when does common sense kick in?

Almost all AHJs do, check it out. They all take a copy of the IRC and IBC adopt it then make amendments to it to suit their viewpoints. Why would any city or county want to build their own from scratch it would be too costly. Same way with the NEC. Electricians just never look at an IRC or IBC, I have.

As far as yours or my viewpoint on a person (Darwins theory) so stupid as to leave a car running in a closed garage and other stuff just doesn't matter. It is what it is, code rules that we have no control over.

Seeing that you did not not look up the codes I did it for you. I always look up the printed statement on an issue, I never quote opinions because they don't count. Here are the rules for you and every one else who has not seen them, it proves this is not my opinion. Every thing I stated is below with the rule reference.

SECTION R315 CARBON MONOXIDE ALARMS

R315.1 Carbon monoxide alarms. For new construction, an approved carbon monoxide alarm shall be installed outside of each separate sleeping area in the immediate vicinity of the bedrooms indwelling units within which fuel-fired appliances are installed and in dwelling units that have attached garages.
R315.2 Where required in existing dwellings. Where work requiring a permit occurs in existing dwellings that have attached garages or in existing dwellings within which fuel-fired appliances exist, carbon monoxide alarms shall be provided in accordance with Section R315.1.
R315.3 Alarm requirements. Single station carbon monoxide alarms shall be listed as complying with UL 2034 and shall be installed in accordance with this code and the manufacturer's installation instructions.
Top Previous Section Next
R314.3 Location. Smoke alarms shall be installed in the following locations:

1. In each sleeping room.
2. Outside each separate sleeping area in the immediate vicinity of the bedrooms.
3. On each additional story of the dwelling, including basements and habitable attics but not including crawl spaces and uninhabitable attics. In dwellings or dwelling units with split levels and without an intervening door between the adjacent levels, a smoke alarm installed on the upper level shall suffice for the adjacent lower level provided that the lower level is less than one fullstory below the upper level.

When more than one smoke alarm is required to be installed within an individual dwelling unit the alarm devices shall be interconnected in such a manner that the actuation of one alarm will activate all of the alarms in the individual unit.

R314.4 Power source. Smoke alarms shall receive their primary power from the building wiring when such wiring is served from a commercial source, and when primary power is interrupted, shall receive power from a battery. Wiring shall be permanent and without a disconnecting switch other than those required for overcurrent protection. Smoke alarms shall be interconnected.

Exceptions:

1. Smoke alarms shall be permitted to be battery operated when installed in buildings without commercial power.
2. Interconnection and hard-wiring of smoke alarms in existing areas shall not be required where the alterations or repairs do not result in the removal of interior wall or ceiling finishes exposing the structure, unless there is an attic, crawl space or basement available which could provide access for hard wiring and interconnection without the removal of interior finishes.

 

[kwired]

Almost all AHJs do, check it out. They all take a copy of the IRC and IBC adopt it then make amendments to it to suit their viewpoints. Why would any city or county want to build their own from scratch it would be too costly. Same way with the NEC. Electricians just never look at an IRC or IBC, I have.

As far as yours or my viewpoint on a person (Darwins theory) so stupid as to leave a car running in a closed garage and other stuff just doesn't matter. It is what it is, code rules that we have no control over.

Seeing that you did not not look up the codes I did it for you. I always look up the printed statement on an issue, I never quote opinions because they don't count. Here are the rules for you and every one else who has not seen them, it proves this is not my opinion. Every thing I stated is below with the rule reference.

SECTION R315 CARBON MONOXIDE ALARMS

R315.1 Carbon monoxide alarms. For new construction, an approved carbon monoxide alarm shall be installed outside of each separate sleeping area in the immediate vicinity of the bedrooms indwelling units within which fuel-fired appliances are installed and in dwelling units that have attached garages.
R315.2 Where required in existing dwellings. Where work requiring a permit occurs in existing dwellings that have attached garages or in existing dwellings within which fuel-fired appliances exist, carbon monoxide alarms shall be provided in accordance with Section R315.1.
R315.3 Alarm requirements. Single station carbon monoxide alarms shall be listed as complying with UL 2034 and shall be installed in accordance with this code and the manufacturer's installation instructions.
Top Previous Section Next
R314.3 Location. Smoke alarms shall be installed in the following locations:

1. In each sleeping room.
2. Outside each separate sleeping area in the immediate vicinity of the bedrooms.
3. On each additional story of the dwelling, including basements and habitable attics but not including crawl spaces and uninhabitable attics. In dwellings or dwelling units with split levels and without an intervening door between the adjacent levels, a smoke alarm installed on the upper level shall suffice for the adjacent lower level provided that the lower level is less than one fullstory below the upper level.

When more than one smoke alarm is required to be installed within an individual dwelling unit the alarm devices shall be interconnected in such a manner that the actuation of one alarm will activate all of the alarms in the individual unit.

R314.4 Power source. Smoke alarms shall receive their primary power from the building wiring when such wiring is served from a commercial source, and when primary power is interrupted, shall receive power from a battery. Wiring shall be permanent and without a disconnecting switch other than those required for overcurrent protection. Smoke alarms shall be interconnected.

Exceptions:

1. Smoke alarms shall be permitted to be battery operated when installed in buildings without commercial power.
2. Interconnection and hard-wiring of smoke alarms in existing areas shall not be required where the alterations or repairs do not result in the removal of interior wall or ceiling finishes exposing the structure, unless there is an attic, crawl space or basement available which could provide access for hard wiring and interconnection without the removal of interior finishes.

You missed my point. Not every code ever published is law everywhere. I did not bother looking up code you mentioned because it is not a code that has been adopted in areas where I work. Before you say everybody uses national building code you may want to find out if that is indeed true. Even NEC is not necessarily the electrical code everywhere. Out here in rural areas, there is practically no codes. If there is adopted codes, nobody is enforcing them which makes them somewhat pointless to call the adopted code. We do have statewide electrical AHJ and that makes the NEC about the only code that does have an AHJ that does come and inspect things. Larger cities around here do adopt and inspect for other codes, but I have enough work to do where I am and stay out of those cities with my work.