Just wanted to share a huge problem waiting happen

[Stickley]

I recently started doing maintenance for a company and I am finding all sorts of extremely troubling safety problems. This is just a couple of pictures that will speak for themselves but 480V 3phase motors in condensate/drain pit....

 

[GoldDigger]

I recently started doing maintenance for a company and I am finding all sorts of extremely troubling safety problems. This is just a couple of pictures that will speak for themselves but 480V 3phase motors in condensate/drain pit....

Am I correct in interpreting that white stuff in the first picture as either steam or water vapor?
How is the pit drained??

I hope the problem chooses to keep waiting for awhile.

 

[Stickley]

That is a used water from a dept at the facility headed to the recycle area. It has a gravity flow drain in the bottom of the pit that gets clogged on a normal basis and this is the result. The building is heated with steam and this is the pit for the water vapor and various other water sources that have been piped into it over the years.

I sure hope the problem keeps waiting as well. That is a open motor and that picture was actually taken while the motor was RUNNING!! I almost couldnt believe my eyes

 

[GoldDigger]

That is a used water from a dept at the facility headed to the recycle area. It has a gravity flow drain in the bottom of the pit that gets clogged on a normal basis and this is the result. The building is heated with steam and this is the pit for the water vapor and various other water sources that have been piped into it over the years.

I sure hope the problem keeps waiting as well. That is a open motor and that picture was actually taken while the motor was RUNNING!! I almost couldnt believe my eyes

First step: put in a water level alarm! At least a flashing beacon light.

 

[jumper]

I recently started doing maintenance for a company and I am finding all sorts of extremely troubling safety problems.

I did maintenance for 10 years, you will find that it only gets worse. Good luck. I feel for ya.

 

[GoldDigger]

I did maintenance for 10 years, you will find that it only gets worse. Good luck. I feel for ya.

Maintenance = all the responsibility and none of the power.

 

[Stickley]

First step: put in a water level alarm! At least a flashing beacon light.

That is the one thing they did right. It has a high level float which triggers a horn/audible. I am trying to relocate the pump outside the pit but you are totally right all the responsibility and no power. I will keep trying to make it safe though.

 

[hurk27]

If the pump motors are sealed then I'm not seeing the safety problem, we have all kinds of motors that are not just located by water but actually run underwater, think wells and sump pumps as well as lift stations, electrically they are no different, if there seals ever leak and the water is conductive enough then it would not be long for OCPD's to open, the main concern is since LTFMC (seal tight) is being used, make sure there is a good equipment grounding conductor also installed in the seal tight, make sure the connections are good and clean, dielectric grease is your best friend in keeping connections good when you have high moisture content that can cause connections to corrode, it is imperative to make sure you have a good ground fault path back to source, as long as the grounding path is good, the shock danger is just not there, as long as no one will try to work on the pump without lock out, tag out, and try out.

This is a very common installation that can be seen in many industrial installations, again I stress to not use the seal tight as a grounding path in an installation like this as it too can corrode at its connections and with out an internal EGC your fault path could not be depended upon.

Even the pressure switch or any other electrical equipment in and around this pit should be checked for grounding.

 

[Stickley]

If the pump motors are sealed then I'm not seeing the safety problem, we have all kinds of motors that are not just located by water but actually run underwater, think wells and sump pumps as well as lift stations, electrically they are no different, if there seals ever leak and the water is conductive enough then it would not be long for OCPD's to open, the main concern is since LTFMC (seal tight) is being used, make sure there is a good equipment grounding conductor also installed in the seal tight, make sure the connections are good and clean, dielectric grease is your best friend in keeping connections good when you have high moisture content that can cause connections to corrode, it is imperative to make sure you have a good ground fault path back to source, as long as the grounding path is good, the shock danger is just not there, as long as no one will try to work on the pump without lock out, tag out, and try out.

This is a very common installation that can be seen in many industrial installations, again I stress to not use the seal tight as a grounding path in an installation like this as it too can corrode at its connections and with out an internal EGC your fault path could not be depended upon.

Even the pressure switch or any other electrical equipment in and around this pit should be checked for grounding.

i sure wish that was the case. However both motors are are open frame and the integrity of the grounding path is questionable at best.

 

[hurk27]

That is a used water from a dept at the facility headed to the recycle area. It has a gravity flow drain in the bottom of the pit that gets clogged on a normal basis and this is the result. The building is heated with steam and this is the pit for the water vapor and various other water sources that have been piped into it over the years.

I sure hope the problem keeps waiting as well. That is a open motor and that picture was actually taken while the motor was RUNNING!! I almost couldn't believe my eyes

When you say that is an open motor, the motors in the photos look like TEC's or totally enclosed the one is an air over with the fan on the back blowing air over the out side, that is an indication it is a sealed motor, the other one I'm not so sure as it could have openings on the bottom, the air over should have gaskets on the wiring compartment, and the seal tight should have seals on the connection to the box, but either way as long as there is a good ground path the most that will happen is the motor will fault out and blow the fuses or breaker, then when replacing the motor make sure they are replaced with a sealed type motors.

Maybe for some added surety, run a bonding cable between each of the metal pipes and building steel if possible and may be the frame of each motor?

 

[hurk27]

i sure wish that was the case. However both motors are are open frame and the integrity of the grounding path is questionable at best.

Well as long as you make sure the grounding path is good, which should be the objective if you can't get the motors moved, at least this will prevent a shock hazard, the motors will fail if they get enough water in them, if they have a good ground path back to source even if they short out, they will open the OCPD's, the grounding is the most important part, and I don't mean to earth, I mean a low impedance path back to source.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Well as long as you make sure the grounding path is good, which should be the objective if you can't get the motors moved, at least this will prevent a shock hazard, the motors will fail if they get enough water in them, if they have a good ground path back to source even if they short out, they will open the OCPD's, the grounding is the most important part, and I don't mean to earth, I mean a low impedance path back to source.

like wayne says... i'd toss some #6 solid in between the motor, control devices, and something well grounded,
and while i was at it, i'd leave the tail on that #6 hang down into the water. you can run that exposed, and if
it isn't stranded, it'll last a good long while. burndy makes a threaded stud that looks like a cross between
a bolt and a kearney that works the best of anything i've seen for bonding. they are pricey, however.

many maintenance situations fall into the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
category. a lot of the time, all you can do is make sure there is protection
for personnel by the most inexpensive means possible.

the bare exposed #6 is easy to verify that it's still doing the job,
and when the stuff goes south, it won't sit there waiting to fry
someone. it'll open the OCPD, and then you will have something to
maintain.:happyyes:

 

[kwired]

A typical totally enclosed motor is still not intended for submersion though. They usually do have weep holes to drain condensation and don't have any seals designed for keeping out water in a submersion application.

Not only do you have electrical risks, but the bearings on this motor likely have a shorter life from being submerged, if it were a single phase motor with a centrifugal starting winding switch - it would not last long at all before you had trouble with either the governor assembly or the switch.

 

[Stickley]

When you say that is an open motor, the motors in the photos look like TEC's or totally enclosed the one is an air over with the fan on the back blowing air over the out side, that is an indication it is a sealed motor, the other one I'm not so sure as it could have openings on the bottom, the air over should have gaskets on the wiring compartment, and the seal tight should have seals on the connection to the box, but either way as long as there is a good ground path the most that will happen is the motor will fault out and blow the fuses or breaker, then when replacing the motor make sure they are replaced with a sealed type motors.

Maybe for some added surety, run a bonding cable between each of the metal pipes and building steel if possible and may be the frame of each motor?

The one is a totally enclosed motor but it is only a dust proof motor and there is no gasket of any type in the pecker head cover. As for the other motor its from the 50's and the holes in the bottom totally expose the windings. There is no seal tight or even a ground wire in the liquid tight that goes to the motor. Bonding all the metal pipes and building steel would be a good idea in the mean time until i get them to relocate the motor out of the pit.

 

[Stickley]

When you say that is an open motor, the motors in the photos look like TEC's or totally enclosed the one is an air over with the fan on the back blowing air over the out side, that is an indication it is a sealed motor, the other one I'm not so sure as it could have openings on the bottom, the air over should have gaskets on the wiring compartment, and the seal tight should have seals on the connection to the box, but either way as long as there is a good ground path the most that will happen is the motor will fault out and blow the fuses or breaker, then when replacing the motor make sure they are replaced with a sealed type motors.<br>
<br>
Maybe for some added surety, run a bonding cable between each of the metal pipes and building steel if possible and may be the frame of each motor?

<br><br>The one is a totally enclosed motor but it is only a dust proof motor and there is no gasket of any type in the pecker head cover. As for the other motor its from the 50's and the holes in the bottom totally expose the windings. There is no seal tight or even a ground wire in the liquid tight that goes to the motor. Bonding all the metal pipes and building steel would be a good idea in the mean time until i get them to relocate the motor out of the pit.  

 

[kwired]

Bonding all the metal pipes and building steel would be a good idea in the mean time until i get them to relocate the motor out of the pit.

Chances are they are already bonded pretty well but it doesn't hurt anything either.

Though getting the motor out of the pit is a good idea for electrical safety, you also need to consider the mechanical reasoning of why it is in its present location, maybe that is the place where the pump needs to be and improvements need to be made to the malfunctioning or improperly designed drain.

 

[Stickley]

I will certainly have to create some sort of low impedance path back to the source and hope that the ancient Trumbull OCPD with trip on a fault condition. I am just concerned with the shock hazard associated with this type situation. I don't want anyone to walk by and grab the railing or metal pipe and be electrocuted.

 

[petersonra]

If that is the worst thing you find be happy.

Most sump pumps work fine with the motor underwater as they are designed that way. This is not uncommon.

 

[GoldDigger]

If that is the worst thing you find be happy.

Most sump pumps work fine with the motor underwater as they are designed that way. This is not uncommon.

Are you assuming that the motors you see are sump pump motors? They could well be doing something else. Do you see many 480 volt sump pumps?

 

[Stickley]

Thanks for all the ideas and info.... I will do my best to insure the safety of the situation. Thanks again.