Allis Chalmers Size 3 motor starter

[Luketrician]

Hello All,

We are doing some maintenance to some old Allis Chalmers size 3 motor starter/contactors with CAT ID # XL-3CC0.

In regards to replacement parts, we have found some replacements, however, the CAT IDs for the replacements are XL-3CC0-JA.

Not sure what the JA designation is for.

Did Siemens add the JA designatioin to these when they bought Allis Chalmers?

Maybe JA identifying a "refurbished" item?


Just if anyone has some information I would appreciate it.

Thanks in advance,

 

[Jraef]

When I left Siemens, they were throwing out all catalogs and data sheets over 7 years old, so I grabbed the ancient stuff from the recycle bin and took it with me to my next job. I had Allis Chalmers catalogs back to 1969.

The JA would be a series designation. If your original starter does not show that, or any other two digit code, then it is the original series and the later parts may or may not fit and there is nobody left to ask. The original Allis Chalmers product lines were essentially dumped by Siemens when they bought them, they only retained records and spare parts production for the required 7 years, which expired a lifetime ago.

If your starter says Allis Chalmers instead of Siemens Allis, then it was made before 1978, if it says Siemens Allis, then it was made before 1985. Either way it is at least almost 30 years old, may even be closer to 40. It might be time to consider changing it now. Even if you replace contacts and coils, the phenolic components are getting brittle by now and will be breaking more often that it is worth to keep them in service, and even if you find those replacement parts, THEY are now over 20 years old at BEST. You have to start considering the cost of your down time.

 

[Luketrician]

The starter/contactors currently in service only say Allis-Chalmers, with the CAT ID# of XL-3CC0.

The ones we are looking to get have Siemens label and have the CAT ID# of XL-3CC0-JA.

I agree with the probability of failures due to age of the ones we have which are currently in service..and the ones that we are looking at obtaining for "suitable repalcements".

Periodically, inspections and testing is performed on these starter/contactors, and so far no deficiencies have been identified but, yes only a matter of time before we have a failure.

We are often forced to (as with this situation) to continue to use/find original equipment parts(if we can find it).

Our site looks at design changes as THE last option unfortunately.

 

[petersonra]

is it considered a design change to swap out am obsolete size 3 starter for a size 3 starter that is not obsolete?

a size 3 starter is not real expensive to begin with. you might spend more trying to find replacement parts than just replacing them.

 

[Jraef]

Also if they are inside of MCCs, you can order replacement buckets for Allis Chalmers Marq 1 and Marq 2 MCCs from Siemens. They will have new Siemens breakers and starters inside, but the buckets and stab assemblies will all be new. That might get around your "design change" issue for now, but put you into new components that will last longer.

http://www.industry.usa.siemens.com...rket-and-replacement-parts/pages/repairs.aspx

 

[hurk27]

I see this as blinders thinking, the people who manage large entities such as the TVA and even private company's tend to put the blinders on and only see what is in front of them and the now cost, by upgrading the equipment to newer more readily available parts as the equipment fails now will ensure lower cost down the road and less down time in the future, I see this kind of thinking all the time, in our line of work its hard to do a proper job to keep down time to a minimum as well as cost when we are kept from doing the right thing now, if these people would ever take the blinders off, they will start to see how making the right choices today can save them much more money down the road.

I use the buying of tires as a good example, people with blinders on will see the low cost of a set of $50.00 20,000 mile tires as the right choice, but take the blinders off, and a set of $150.00 tires that will last 100,000 miles will be way lower cost in the long run because that set of $50.00 tires will end up costing them $250.00 at the end of 100,000 miles, and at the same time there was no down time for the whole 100,000 miles.

I know as budgets are strained and money is tight we will see more and more of this kind of thinking, but we need people who manage these companies to take the blinders off so they can see the whole pichure instead of what is just in front of them right now.

Seeing where your are at and that you work for the TVA is this something to do with the Chickamauga Lock & Dam if I may ask? if so I can not see what they would not want to make the right choices now to keep from having problems down the road.

I feel for you as I have some of the same kinds of problems at work, patch it up and make it work instead of doing whats right that will save much more money in the long run.

My favorite saying is "Wheres the duct tape"

 

[kwired]

I see this as blinders thinking, the people who manage large entities such as the TVA and even private company's tend to put the blinders on and only see what is in front of them and the now cost, by upgrading the equipment to newer more readily available parts as the equipment fails now will ensure lower cost down the road and less down time in the future, I see this kind of thinking all the time, in our line of work its hard to do a proper job to keep down time to a minimum as well as cost when we are kept from doing the right thing now, if these people would ever take the blinders off, they will start to see how making the right choices today can save them much more money down the road.

I use the buying of tires as a good example, people with blinders on will see the low cost of a set of $50.00 20,000 mile tires as the right choice, but take the blinders off, and a set of $150.00 tires that will last 100,000 miles will be way lower cost in the long run because that set of $50.00 tires will end up costing them $250.00 at the end of 100,000 miles, and at the same time there was no down time for the whole 100,000 miles.

I know as budgets are strained and money is tight we will see more and more of this kind of thinking, but we need people who manage these companies to take the blinders off so they can see the whole pichure instead of what is just in front of them right now.

Seeing where your are at and that you work for the TVA is this something to do with the Chickamauga Lock & Dam if I may ask? if so I can not see what they would not want to make the right choices now to keep from having problems down the road.

I feel for you as I have some of the same kinds of problems at work, patch it up and make it work instead of doing whats right that will save much more money in the long run.

My favorite saying is "Wheres the duct tape"

The way some companies are bought and sold or going out of business, or just making cut backs, some managers maybe are not looking that far into the future with return on investment for some things.

 

[Luketrician]

I work/plan electrical work orders at Sequoyah Nuclear plant..

You guys are spot on in regards to budgeting.

If It were up to me I would not waste anymore time with antiquated equipment/parts, 20/30 year old "replacement parts" does not get us much if any..reliability.

We have located and are arranging to buy 5 of siemens/allis size 3 starter/contactors (which are probably 20+ yrs old), each one will be tested before it goes into our inventory, shake tests, and quality evaluations.

I have also initiated a request for our design engineering to find a suitable replacement also..whether my request gets approved is another story though.


Thanks for yall the replies and help too,


Luke

 

[kwired]

I work/plan electrical work orders at Sequoyah Nuclear plant..

You guys are spot on in regards to budgeting.

If It were up to me I would not waste anymore time with antiquated equipment/parts, 20/30 year old "replacement parts" does not get us much if any..reliability.

We have located and are arranging to buy 5 of siemens/allis size 3 starter/contactors (which are probably 20+ yrs old), each one will be tested before it goes into our inventory, shake tests, and quality evaluations.

I have also initiated a request for our design engineering to find a suitable replacement also..whether my request gets approved is another story though.


Thanks for yall the replies and help too,


Luke

Maybe you are forgetting one test - the 8 pound hammer test. If it doesn't pass this test don't put it into inventory

 

[Luketrician]

lol...yeah Kwired, that is a GREAT test to run..

also the drop test...stand on top of a 6 foot ladder and drop em on a concrete floor and see how high they bounce back..if it all (haha)