what is theft

[qcroanoke]

Two examples I would like opinions on: 1) Several years ago I was asked to remove some old wiring that had fed a building that had been torn down. It amounted to just under 600 lbs of copper. It seemed kind of silly to throw it away so I asked my supervisor at the time and his response was, "It has to go in the dumpster, after that I don't care what happens to it." I was a little nervous about taking it so I asked the company VP. His response was, "We are not in the business of selling scrap." I asked him to clarify and got the exact same response with a large grin on his face. Is that stealing?

Your supervisor told you it had to go in the dumpster after that he did not care what happened to it.
In other words if you take it out of the dumpster on your time and recycle it, fine. You put it in the dumpster like I told you and that is all I need to know.

 

[Strathead]

Your supervisor told you it had to go in the dumpster after that he did not care what happened to it.
In other words if you take it out of the dumpster on your time and recycle it, fine. You put it in the dumpster like I told you and that is all I need to know.

I remember when it was pretty standard to allow employees to take the scrap. It isn't any more. When I was in the "do anything the owner doesn't" position of a small company, my rule was, the apprentices get the wire. I wish that human nature was predominately saintly, but in my experience it isn't. If you let your crew keep the scrap, you better be sure that the lengths are not determined by the same person. I couple extra feet on 5 parallel runs of 500 KCMIL adds up.

In today's environment, I am a advocate of a firm policy that all scrap comes back to the shop. It just makes it easier. Regarding everything else, I just make a habit of asking every time. The owner of my Company has allowed me to have GFI's and cover plates, etc. but the next time I need one, I won't presume, I will ask again! Where it gets a little dicey is misc. stuff. I have cases of screws, wire nuts, bushings etc. that have been collected over the years. If I need something for a job and I have it, I use it. Conversely, if I need a few wire nuts at home, or a piece of electrical tape, I will use what I have. I feel this is give and take, but if I worked for someone who was a stickler, I would give or take and that would be acceptable, but IMO foolish on their part. Regretfully, I believe there are many out there who believe much more in take than give.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I worked for a boss like that once for a very short time "VARY" he asked me that very question, he said work don't stop until 3:30 I said no problem, at 3:30 went and got in my truck and went to leave, he came out screaming that I didn't pick up his tools, I said nope and it ain't going to happen on my dime, told him to read the labor laws, and drove off, he called me for weeks trying to get me to come back.

Picking up the tools, cleaning the job site, and any other task where you do not have control over your time then you are on his clock, its in the labor laws, if he wants you to pickup or clean up after the end of the shift then he has to pay for this extra time as it is part of the job.

A good rule of thumb is treat your workers as you would want to be treated, be assertive and consistent about the rules and repercussions when they break the rules, being consistent with the rules and repercussions of breaking them will instill a clear understanding that they won't try to play games to see what they can get away with as a child will do with their parents, but always remember they are human just like you, and want to be treated with the same respect and trust that you want from them, if they are supposed to be already experienced then don't micro manage them as if they need this then you don't need them, give them a the task to do, tell them how you want it to be done, but don't stand over their shoulder and micro manage them, if they don't follow what you want then see if maybe your not communicating correctly, as communication break downs is one of the biggest ways to loose good employees and is one of the most common faults for workers not following what you want, I have wrote a few hand books for companies I have worked for, that spelled out what I expected from my workers under me, I wont micro manage someone because if I have to then I don't need that person if they claim to be a experienced electrician, if I have new inexperienced workers then I put them with someone who will work with them and keep an eye on them, but I always tell them to show them what to do and tell them to ask about anything they don't understand, check on them from time to time just to see if the job is going in the right direction and ask maybe if they have any questions, but the more respect and trust you give them to do the job correctly the more they will try to meet your expectations if they are an employee who is worth keeping.

My rules were just like I had for my kids, Do what is expected and everything is ok, do more then what is expected and I will reward you, do less and I will discipline, I usually have a fair margin to what is expected and what is above and below the expected level because I know we all do not work the same, but not getting work out because I see you just not trying or talking on your phone or goofing off then we will have a problem, I simply ask them if they are not interested in electrical work then they need to find a job that does interest them, as we all know we need to find work we like to do otherwise we will never excel at the level we need if we have no interest in what we are doing and matching workers with jobs they have an interest in goes a long way to getting and keeping good employees.

Sorry for the ramble just wanted to share some incite I have learned over the years

Had the same thing happen to me, almost. Got to a good stopping point one day and got back to shop at 3:30, got the old what are you doing here and I pay you from 7:00 to 3:30. Next morning I showed up at the shop at 6:30 like I always did and was sitting there drinking a cup of coffee while the boss was loading the truck. He looked and me and asked if I was gonna give him a hand or just sit there. I told him that I got paid from 7:00-3:30 and I would be glad to help him at 7. Now he was also the same one that might just call it a day at noon for no real reason and pay me for the day, buy breakfast every once in awhile, or had me an extra $100 if he got paid cash, so I never really complained about the extra half hour every day as he treated me pretty good, so when he flip flopped, I just flip flopped right along with him. Never had a problem with work hours after that.

Another way to do the scrap is to let the guys pick it up towards the end of the day and take it back to the shop, then maybe every six months or whatever it takes to get a good load, take it down and have a shop party or split the proceeds amongst the guys for a bonus. May be $10, may be $100 you'll never know, but you will find that as long as they think you care about them, you will get way more out of them.

 

[GoldDigger]

Your supervisor told you it had to go in the dumpster after that he did not care what happened to it.
In other words if you take it out of the dumpster on your time and recycle it, fine. You put it in the dumpster like I told you and that is all I need to know.

FWIW, with the current problems with copper theft, there are more and more local laws that make it difficult for anybody but a contractor or licensed person to sell copper scrap, particularly in bulk.

 

[qcroanoke]

FWIW, with the current problems with copper theft, there are more and more local laws that make it difficult for anybody but a contractor or licensed person to sell copper scrap, particularly in bulk.

I have had them copy down my tag number and ask for my ID when recycling aluminum cans.
I now have an account that they keep records of what I bought in and how much I was payed.
My understanding of that is that if they pay you $600.00 or more in a calendar year you will be getting a 1099 form from them.
All of our scrapyards are now owned by corporations. They will still buy your scrap but if you think you are anonyomus think again.

 

[iwire]

There are places around here like that as well but if you know where to go you can still walk out with $6K cash in nice $100 bills no id required.

 

[qcroanoke]

There are places around here like that as well but if you know where to go you can still walk out with $6K cash in nice $100 bills no id required.

I know of one such place. Not worth the drive since I rarely have more than 60-80 lbs. of aluminum and scrap steel.
All I ever get is "did you drink all those yourself?" Yessssss I did.

 

[renosteinke]

I am sometimes tempted to get my hair cut on company time - after all, it grew on company time, didn't it?

Then I'm reminded of Jimmy Carter, who confessed to having committed adultery "in his heart."

In "We Were Soldiers," a crusty old sergeant takes a young lieutenant to task, for simply saying "good morning.' After all, how can he know what sort of morning it will be?

IMO, every employer who does not participate in apprentice programs, or offer training with independent, transferable credentials, is a thief. They expect someone else to pay for what is a proper business expense - and they sure don't pay a penny above 'market rate.' Employers are also quite shameless in expecting the employee to provide clothing, tools, a truck, and all manner of other things that they simply would never need - except for the needs of the employer. They hire based on 'experience and qualifications'- - then endeavor to make sure you are not able to benefit from your experience with them.

Tax deduction? Guess what- I can 'write off' losses to thefts, fires, and other misfortunes as well. How about the employer provide - his write-off rules are far more liberal under Schedule C anyway. Telling me I can 'write it off' is simply a way to insult me. You have no right to feel offended should I reply with terms not often heard in Church- you started it!

Then there's the time clock. It's simply amazing how sharp the pencil can be, how creative interpretation of the rules can be, when it's time to write a check. Ask about it, show some knowledge of the rules, and you're called an unrealistic dreamer - then told your services aren't needed anymore.

The simple fact is that am employer has to rely upon the honesty and professionalism of his crew. If he can't treat them as professionals, and trust them not to steal the wire nuts ... one of them is in the wrong business.

 

[jumper]

But they are stealing his pencils!

I do not care if you swipe my pencils. I can swipe more from a secretary:But darn it, quit borrowing my Sharpie and not returning it.:rant:

I buy off colors, purple, pink, brown, orange, etc to try and catch culprits later. Works occasionaly.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I do not care if you swipe my pencils. I can swipe more from a secretary:But darn it, quit borrowing my Sharpie and not returning it.:rant:

I buy off colors, purple, pink, brown, orange, etc to try and catch culprits later. Works occasionaly.

My wife bought her own pens at work one time, one's with her name on them, because she got tired of hearing her boss complain about how the pens were always disapearing. One day she asked him to sign something and he reached in his pocket and pulle out one of her pens.:happyyes:

 

[jumper]

My wife bought her own pens at work one time, one's with her name on them, because she got tired of hearing her boss complain about how the pens were always disapearing. One day she asked him to sign something and he reached in his pocket and pulle out one of her pens.:happyyes:

LMAO.:lol:

 

[bradleyelectric]

Wife started a new job and asked her employer for basic office supplies for her desk. She was directed who to talk to to get them. When she asked that person they were tight with some of the items. My wife asked me to get them for her. I replied why should it cost me for some department head to save money? She agreed. Knowing her she just went and bought them herself. Other things about this company are very good for the employee. Just stuck me as odd and relates to the discussion.

 

[kwired]

Wife started a new job and asked her employer for basic office supplies for her desk. She was directed who to talk to to get them. When she asked that person they were tight with some of the items. My wife asked me to get them for her. I replied why should it cost me for some department head to save money? She agreed. Knowing her she just went and bought them herself. Other things about this company are very good for the employee. Just stuck me as odd and relates to the discussion.

I am not a tax expert, but I believe if she needs to bear those expenses she can write them off on her income tax.