No ufer ground installed. Options?

[crtemp]

I have a contractor that did not install a ufer ground. In my area ground rods are no longer accepted. Code says now a ground ring must be installed. Can he get around this by just cutting up the foundation and tying into a piece of rebar?

 

[GoldDigger]

I have a contractor that did not install a ufer ground. In my area ground rods are no longer accepted. Code says now a ground ring must be installed. Can he get around this by just cutting up the foundation and tying into a piece of rebar?

It would be hard to prove to the inspector that the necessary continuity had been provided between pieces of rebar before the concrete was poured!. They might or might not accept that as a valid user ground based on resistance testing. You would have to ask, since this appears to be a local amendment to NEC.

 

[crtemp]

Can he just tie into it at 2 different places so the inspector can get continuity? What exactly is the inspector looking for in a resistance test? Just continuity?

 

[GoldDigger]

Can he just tie into it at 2 different places so the inspector can get continuity? What exactly is the inspector looking for in a resistance test? Just continuity?

Two things to satisfy NEC definition (see 2011 250.52):

1. at least 20 feet of 1/2" diameter rebar either in one piece or properly bonded together.
2. Foundation (not just slab) concrete must be in direct earth contact, not on top of gravel, waterproof membrane, foam insulation or other electrically insulating substances.

And if resistance is measured, it would be resistance to earth using one of the same methods recognized for ground rods.

 

[crtemp]

Rebar wire ties are accepted as an acceptable bond I believe. At least they are when I do bonding on a swimming pool

 

[GoldDigger]

Rebar wire ties are accepted as an acceptable bond I believe. At least they are when I do bonding on a swimming pool

Yep.

...or if in multiple
pieces connected together by the usual steel tie wires,
exothermic welding, welding, or other effective means
to create a 6.0 m (20 ft) or greater length;

 

[Little Bill]

I have never heard of any local jurisdiction not allowing something permitted by the NEC. I've heard of them requiring more or in addition to, but never disallowing an approved NEC method.

I'd be interested to see that in writing.

We have a POCO that requires a rod when there is a Uffer present.:happysad:

 

[curt swartz]

Do you have a link to the local code that states ground rods are not acceptable? Or is this something some inspector is making up?

I don't think the building inspector or structural engineer will be to happy if you start breaking the foundation and exposing the rebar underground. I would check with them first.

 

[infinity]

A ground ring? How big is this building? Even a small house will need 100' or more of trench.

 

[ActionDave]

How about making your own ufer? There is some wording in the code that if you have at least one CCE you don't need go any further.

 

[GoldDigger]

How about making your own ufer? There is some wording in the code that if you have at least one CCE you don't need go any further.

An interesting idea. The wording of the NEC seems to require that a qualifying concrete encased electrode be 20 feet long and part of the foundation or footings of the building. I do not see an allowance for a separately made Ufer. But if the AHJ would accept it it might end up cheaper than the trenching for a ground loop, depending on how deeply the inspector wants it buried.

 

[ActionDave]

Metallic components shall be encased by at least 50 mm
(2 in.) of concrete and shall be located horizontally within
that portion of a concrete foundation or footing that is in di-
rect contact with the earth or within vertical foundations or
structural components or members that are in direct contact
with the earth. If multiple concrete-encased electrodes are
present at a building or structure, it shall be permissible to
bond only one into the grounding electrode system.

The wording in bold is what I was thinking of. Do what you want with the words preceding. A CCE after the fact sure seems better to me than tearing up a foundation.

 

[GoldDigger]

"Metallic components shall be encased by at least 50 mm
(2 in.) of concrete and shall be located horizontally within
that portion of a concrete foundation or footing that is in di-
rect contact with the earth or within vertical foundations or
structural components or members that are in direct contact
with the earth. If multiple concrete-encased electrodes are
present at a building or structure, it shall be permissible to
bond only one into the grounding electrode system."
Do what you want with the words preceding. A CCE after the fact sure seems better to me than tearing up a foundation.

I just can't ignore the part about how any single CCE must meet one of the two bold requirements. If you can make either of them, then it does not matter how many other CCEs there are. If you cannot make one of those two, you do not have any CCEs at all.

But you might get lucky with a particular inspector.

 

[ActionDave]

So maybe there is this part of a footing that did not get used for the building.:angel: My first construction job was doing concrete, so I know this can happen.

That aside I agree with where you are coming from. I read the part you highlighted again and again.

Knowing what most everybody knows about the effectiveness of groundrods vs. Ufer grounds I would pitch the idea real hard if the inspector turned out to be another type of particular inspector.

 

[Glennsparky]

The rebar and wire ties should have passed inspection before the pour. ( but that shouldn't have passed without the CEE stubout.) If the inspector will allow it, you may not have to excavate a clamp sized hole all around a piece of rebar.

Just expose a surface of rebar the size of a lug with a GEC in it. Then drill and tap a hole in the rebar. Screw in the lug and patch the concrete.

The lug needs to be listed CE, concrete encased. The screw would need to be stainless or bronze, AHJ's choice.

 

[renosteinke]

Cutting into the slab and connecting to the rebar is perfectly acceptable, by the NEC.

What is a UFER? Code says it can be ordinary rebar, or even several bits of rebar, connected with nothing more than the customary tie wires.

Chip down, connect GEC with the usual ground clamp, and patch. No problem. Heck, even the slab for my air conditioner has 20-ft of rebar forming the perimeter.

 

[Cavie]

The intent is not to bond the rebar. The intent is to use the rebar as a ground path. Only 20' required. Dig a 20' ditch, incase a proper sized rebar in 2" of concrete with the clamp incased. Have it inspected. Say good night.
You could have miles of rebar on sight. If you found one lonely piece 20' you could use it and not have to bond the rest.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would talk to the AHJ. Most footing, at least around here , have all the rebar tied together. Certainly the guy who inspected the rebar before the pour could testify to it. In that case the AHJ may say just chip away and get to the rebar and all is well.

 

[tom baker]

Are you in Washington? Our March state code rules require a ufer. If no ufer then a ground ring. There is no other option.
If our readers are in Washington pay attention and get the current WAC 296-46B rules, and better yet subscribe to the Electrical Currents to get the monthly newsletter, it will save you time and money.
Newletter here http://www.lni.wa.gov/Main/Listservs/Electrical.asp
Current electrical laws and rules here: http://www.lni.wa.gov/TradesLicensing/Electrical/LawRulePol/LawsRules/default.asp

 

[infinity]

What does Washington State have against ground rods? IMO a ground ring is completely ridiculous.