Stray voltage on 220-3ph when breaker is off

[jgramlich]

I've just added a new 220v-3ph receptacle in our shop. While I was installing I noticed some strange stray voltage. When I have the breaker for the 3ph circuit in the *off* position, I get a reading of 25v between any leg of the 220v-3ph circuit and my conduit (EMT).

We've been having some strange issues with our 120v-20A circuits in the shop tripping occasionally when the shop guys are using their angle grinders. It doesn't happen a lot and it happens with at least 5 different tools, so I suspect the circuits and not the tools they are using.

The 220v-3ph and the 120v circuits are all fed out of the same panel. I suspect there was some wire skinned when it got installed and I'm getting a "leak" somewhere because of that. I also suspect that this is what is causing our 120v breakers to trip...but I thought I'd ask around before ripping all the 120v wiring out and replacing it. I've already replaced a couple of the 120v-20A breakers to no avail. It isn't the breakers that are bad.

Thoughts?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Are you licensed to do this work?

 

[jgramlich]

Licensed?

Licensed?

Unless you're going to put a verified license as a requirement to forum membership I don't see where that question has any point at all. I could be anyone and lie about certifications I have or have not.

The guy who installed my electrics was "licensed" and he still did a crap job. He used nothing but electrical tape to button up hot wires on a 60A-3ph circuit. The wires weren't even attached to anything and the circuit was left in the *on* position. He used the EMT conduit as the ground on a 60A circuit. There is no ground wire. You may make whatever assumptions about my view of licensing from that statement.

So, if that's the only response I'm going to get here, no thanks. I'll just leave and you can delete my post and account.

 

[GoldDigger]

Unless you're going to put a verified license as a requirement to forum membership I don't see where that question has any point at all. I could be anyone and lie about certifications I have or have not.

The guy who installed my electrics was "licensed" and he still did a crap job. He used nothing but electrical tape to button up hot wires on a 60A-3ph circuit. The wires weren't even attached to anything and the circuit was left in the *on* position. He used the EMT conduit as the ground on a 60A circuit. There is no ground wire. You may make whatever assumptions about my view of licensing from that statement.

So, if that's the only response I'm going to get here, no thanks. I'll just leave and you can delete my post and account.

There is no requirement for licensing, just a professional relationship to the industry. I hope that you can understand that from both the forum efficiency and the liability viewpoints giving advice to a casual DIYer, or advice to anyone to perform rather than just evaluate work that may require a permit and a license in their location has to be discouraged.

In your case, the answer to that question would also give some guidance on how detailed the explanations and background need to be.

 

[jgramlich]

Fair enough, and no offense intended, but I don't have time for this.

Fair enough, and no offense intended, but I don't have time for this.

I've gotten my answer somewhere else.

For what it's worth, it's a bit of circular reasoning to me to put all kinds of posts in the FAQ and forum rules about advice not legally binding, etc, etc and then to continue to hit it up with every new post. Considering that I or anyone, for that matter, could lie about licensing status, it serves no point to ask the question in the first place.

I'm not saying these things because I'm angry or trying to be a d**k, I'm just pointing out what I see. If licensing is going to be a focus of this site, then shut public access down and make proven licensing a requirement to post or read, and make it a closed system. Otherwise, this is the internet, you have to assume that information posted here is going to be used by Africans or South Americans or whoever that are stealing electricity by wrapping bare wire around the mains conductors on the poles. I've seen this done in the third world. At least I've got a copy of NEC 2011. I don't know it by heart, but I have it.

I also know who hates electricians the most...other electricians. I've seen more crap from "licensed" electricians than I care to mention. To me, all a license means is that the local electricians monopoly has given their blessing to a member of the cabal. It proves neither safety nor competence.

This is y'all's forum, and I don't draw any water here, so you do as you like. But your audience is not limited to certified electricians who know the NEC backwards and forwards. It's 16 year old kids in an African village making windmills with car alternators so they can provide their family with electric lighting at night. Very likely the number of actual licensed electricians that view these pages is in the 25% range. Or less. Your questioning the licensing status of, say, me, doesn't prevent other people who don't even post from taking information from other posts and using it for whatever, ergo a waste of time.

So, cheers and good luck. I'll be getting my electrical information elsewhere.

 

[augie47]

FWIW, I think GoldDigger's explanation was to the point.
Licensing does not by any means always indicate proficiency, but in many cases it does.
To me, and probably Dennis, the wording of your question, left some reasonable doubt as to your
familiarity with the many aspects involved with the situation you described. From your follow-up post, I would think getting your info elsewhere is probably an excellent idea.
Cheers !

 

[jamieb]

well said Augie, well said

 

[templdl]

FWIW, I think GoldDigger's explanation was to the point.
Licensing does not by any means always indicate proficiency, but in many cases it does.
To me, and probably Dennis, the wording of your question, left some reasonable doubt as to your
familiarity with the many aspects involved with the situation you described. From your follow-up post, I would think getting your info elsewhere is probably an excellent idea.
Cheers !

Mega dittos.

 

[norcal]

When I hear "110" or "220" it screams DIY.

 

[GoldDigger]

When I hear "110" or "220" it screams DIY.

When I see 120/220 it screams even louder.

 

[kwired]

I've gotten my answer somewhere else.

For what it's worth, it's a bit of circular reasoning to me to put all kinds of posts in the FAQ and forum rules about advice not legally binding, etc, etc and then to continue to hit it up with every new post. Considering that I or anyone, for that matter, could lie about licensing status, it serves no point to ask the question in the first place.

I'm not saying these things because I'm angry or trying to be a d**k, I'm just pointing out what I see. If licensing is going to be a focus of this site, then shut public access down and make proven licensing a requirement to post or read, and make it a closed system. Otherwise, this is the internet, you have to assume that information posted here is going to be used by Africans or South Americans or whoever that are stealing electricity by wrapping bare wire around the mains conductors on the poles. I've seen this done in the third world. At least I've got a copy of NEC 2011. I don't know it by heart, but I have it.

I also know who hates electricians the most...other electricians. I've seen more crap from "licensed" electricians than I care to mention. To me, all a license means is that the local electricians monopoly has given their blessing to a member of the cabal. It proves neither safety nor competence.

This is y'all's forum, and I don't draw any water here, so you do as you like. But your audience is not limited to certified electricians who know the NEC backwards and forwards. It's 16 year old kids in an African village making windmills with car alternators so they can provide their family with electric lighting at night. Very likely the number of actual licensed electricians that view these pages is in the 25% range. Or less. Your questioning the licensing status of, say, me, doesn't prevent other people who don't even post from taking information from other posts and using it for whatever, ergo a waste of time.

So, cheers and good luck. I'll be getting my electrical information elsewhere.

I don't know if you will come back to read any replies or not, as you seem pretty upset about things.

Consider the fact that this site is intended for electrical professionals, of all types to ask questions and engage in conversation about things they run into as part of their work. We even do have posts closed on occasion when say an engineer asks questions of a how to nature when doing a project at their home. That kind of question is outside their work and is not permitted to be discussed here. Licensing is not a requirement, some people do not have to have a license to do their job that is still in the electrical trades, and this does vary from place to place.

Can you lie about who you are or what you do? Yes.

But someone will catch you in your lie here unless you have a lot of experience in this trade and really do know most of what you are talking about.

If you are not an electrical professional we are not allowed to help you according to forum rules. But you are free to browse through all the forum to look for answers to questions you may have. I will add that the answer to your question has been answered many times here.

 

[norcal]

When I see 120/220 it screams even louder.

You forgot 110/208.

 

[GoldDigger]

You forgot 110/208.

Better that than 208/240.

 

[gar]

130713-2207 EDT

I grew up with 110 being nominal, it might have changed to 115 but this I recall less than 117, and now we are at 120, except my nominal ranges from 123 to 125 normally. Yet in an adjacent city I measured about 110 as nominal at a location and this was from a stiffer source than my home location based on the change in voltage with my test 1500 W heater. So it was not low voltage because of line drop. However, it could have been line drop from some other steady load. Voltage was not fluctuating any more than the voltage at my home or shop.

Loosely I am likely to use any of these voltages when I speak. On the other hand when I design equipment the criteria is that it must operate continuously and reliably anywhere from 95 to 135 V.

When I try to describe some test that I perform I try to provide explicit information on the test conditions.

Also I do not fit the allowed criteria for this forum as described above.

.

 

[GoldDigger]

Also I do not fit the allowed criteria for this forum as described above.

.

Based on your profile, you are an EE. That alone makes you an electrical professional, regardless of how you choose to earn a living. And I would say that your work is also related to the electrical industry, so that would qualify you even if you were not an EE. At least by kwired's definition it seems to.

 

[ActionDave]

130713-2207 EDT

I grew up with 110 being nominal, it might have changed to 115 but this I recall less than 117, and now we are at 120. ....

Loosely I am likely to use any of these voltages when I speak.

Me too.

Also I do not fit the allowed criteria for this forum as described above.

You fit just fine. You are an asset to this forum that cannot be quantified, and while I have never met you I feel confident that you are a good bloke as well.

 

[wolfman56]

The state of Illinois has no licensing requirements for electricians, anyone can call themselves an electrician. Several states do not license electricians. In order to pull permits in Illinois you need a contractors license and have to pass a test to get it. A contractor has the license, but none of the employees need a license to work his trade.

Unfortunately the state is loaded with electricians that learned it on the job with no text book training. Thus they know how to install, but do not know technical items like multi-wire circuits. The good ones will seek to educate themselves, sometimes by going to a forum like this one, or other means.

I started out in Illinois, and later moved to A state that has strict licensing rules. Boy what a difference, I've had to study like crazy and took an online electrician course. And this forum has been a real help. But it forced me to really know what I'm doing.

RW

 

[GoldDigger]

The state of Illinois has no licensing requirements for electricians, anyone can call themselves an electrician.

But they cannot do electrical work in some or most cities in the state. Hodge-podge of local requirements make it hard for one person to do work over a large part of the state.

Illinois is a state that does not have a state-wide licensing system for credentialing electricians. Individual municipalities have licensing requirements of their own. These requirements vary from town to town, with some requiring up to four years of journeyman experience. Some municipalities may accept licensing issued by larger cities. Chicago has some of the most stringent licensing requirements.

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/how_7163361_do-electrician_s-license-illinois_.html#ixzz2Z5zF4TWa

 

[don_resqcapt19]

But they cannot do electrical work in some or most cities in the state. Hodge-podge of local requirements make it hard for one person to do work over a large part of the state.

Many of the smaller downstate cities have no rules or even any inspections.

 

[wolfman56]

But they cannot do electrical work in some or most cities in the state. Hodge-podge of local requirements make it hard for one person to do work over a large part of the state.

The cities only require contractor licensing. The employees of a contractor have no licensing requirements, thus anyone can call himself an electrician. I've worked in Chicago, all over Cook county, and the surrounding suburbs. Chicago by far is the strictest, and I never heard if an individual having to have an electricians license, only the contractor.

An EC can go down to the unemployment line and grab a couple of guys for the day to work for him, and no one cares.

Unless something has changed in the last 12 years.

RW