high electric bill

[highpowered]

I have had alot of calls for high electric bills and most the time its a loose wire on the breaker or nuetral bar thats arching. The last one I did everything checked i took all the connections off there terminals restriped them and reconnected. The house is wired in aluminum romex so I thought maybe they screwed down to tight or nicked the wires. After I finished rewiring the panel the main nuetral going to meter went down 3 amps(it was at 7 amps). Total connected load measured was at 22amps from all the circuits. one circuit was pulling 10amps and that nuetral was returning 5amps. It was wired wrong in the sense that it had 3 hot conductors and 1 nuetral. Could this be the reason for a 150$ bill a month? Its a track home lot the house next door recieves a 40$ bill and the owner is old and does not turn AC on. They also used the old crimp connectors coming into the panel I was thinking maybe that was the problem??? any suggestions?? THANKS!!

 

[ptonsparky]

I have had alot of calls for high electric bills and most the time its a loose wire on the breaker or nuetral bar thats arching. The last one I did everything checked i took all the connections off there terminals restriped them and reconnected. The house is wired in aluminum romex so I thought maybe they screwed down to tight or nicked the wires. After I finished rewiring the panel the main nuetral going to meter went down 3 amps(it was at 7 amps). Total connected load measured was at 22amps from all the circuits. one circuit was pulling 10amps and that nuetral was returning 5amps. It was wired wrong in the sense that it had 3 hot conductors and 1 nuetral. Could this be the reason for a 150$ bill a month? Its a track home lot the house next door recieves a 40$ bill and the owner is old and does not turn AC on. They also used the old crimp connectors coming into the panel I was thinking maybe that was the problem??? any suggestions?? THANKS!!

Poor connections are not the cause of high electric bills. Usage is. The poor connection is wasted energy but it is limited to what the connected load is.

 

[petersonra]

One might be inclined to think that a loose connection would be more likely to result in a lower electric bill than a higher one.

I would be looking at checking to see what loads are actually on.

She almost certainly has some load that is on that probably should not be. Like a stuck defroster on a freezer.

$100 a month extra is < 1000 kw-hr most places.

a continuous load of an extra 10A is all it would take.

 

[highpowered]

Poor connections are not the cause of high electric bills. Usage is. The poor connection is wasted energy but it is limited to what the connected load is.

I would not have thought so but 2 instances one the breaker was flaping on the bus bar, when a load turned on the arch made the meter spin ridiculously fast. replaced breaker there bill was back to normal. Same happened with a wire not screwed on th breaker tight high bill fast spin tightened it down back to normal.Obviously if there was no load on the circuit theres no arch but that arch defineatly causes the meter to run high.

 

[highpowered]

One might be inclined to think that a loose connection would be more likely to result in a lower electric bill than a higher one.

I would be looking at checking to see what loads are actually on.

She almost certainly has some load that is on that probably should not be. Like a stuck defroster on a freezer.

$100 a month extra is < 1000 kw-hr most places.

a continuous load of an extra 10A is all it would take.

I agree, that circuit controls there t.v and audio equipment? I guess my question is does the nuetral affect the reading on the meter? that 4 wire circuit the nuetral returns the same amount of amps thats on those circuits? This was the only irregular thing I found

 

[gar]

130717-1316 EDT

highpowered:

I agree with the other comments, but that does not mean I do not believe what you are saying. You are the one observing the problem.

You say the meter spins faster when arcing is occuring. Is this an ordinary electromechanical spinning disk type of meter?

Have you measured the current at the input to the main panel on the phase on which the arcing is occurring while arcing is present and under the same conditions with the same load when you move the breaker so arcing stops?

Should not be any different, but run the same test with the ammeter on the load side of the noisy breaker.

If an arc occurs there is power dissipated in the arc, but not a large amount compared to the power being dissipated in the load, unless the only load is the arc.

If the power company meter is electronic, then it is possible that electrical noise from the arc could cause errors.

A typical air arc at standard pressure (meaning 1 atmosphere) is only a moderately low voltage. Power in the arc and electrodes is the arc voltage times the load current. For resistive loads the load current will drop with lower voltage. With some motor loads the current will increase with dropping voltage until the motor can not supply the load, then locked rotor conditions.

It would be interesting to see what would happen to a TED 1000 power monitor in the situation you describe.

Clearly more tests of different types and equipment would be useful.

Some references:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_arc

From http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/370/jcalvert/dischg.htm.html is the following:
"The voltage of a carbon arc in air is given approximately by V = 38.9 + 2.0x + (16.6 + 10.5x)/I, where V is in volts, I in amperes, and x is the arc length in millimeters."

.

 

[meternerd]

Poor connections are not the cause of high electric bills. Usage is. The poor connection is wasted energy but it is limited to what the connected load is.

It's possible that a poor connection can cause a severe voltage drop under load, which could cause loads, especially motor loads, to draw excessive current trying to start or stay running under the lower voltage. It will definitely damage equipment if the voltage stays low for very long. Neutral problems will not effect meter accuracy on a normal 120/240 service, since the meter voltage is line to line and the neutral is directly connected to the neutral bus.

 

[highpowered]

130717-1316 EDT

highpowered:

I agree with the other comments, but that does not mean I do not believe what you are saying. You are the one observing the problem.

You say the meter spins faster when arcing is occuring. Is this an ordinary electromechanical spinning disk type of meter?

Have you measured the current at the input to the main panel on the phase on which the arcing is occurring while arcing is present and under the same conditions with the same load when you move the breaker so arcing stops?

Should not be any different, but run the same test with the ammeter on the load side of the noisy breaker.

If an arc occurs there is power dissipated in the arc, but not a large amount compared to the power being dissipated in the load, unless the only load is the arc.

If the power company meter is electronic, then it is possible that electrical noise from the arc could cause errors.

A typical air arc at standard pressure (meaning 1 atmosphere) is only a moderately low voltage. Power in the arc and electrodes is the arc voltage times the load current. For resistive loads the load current will drop with lower voltage. With some motor loads the current will increase with dropping voltage until the motor can not supply the load, then locked rotor conditions.

It would be interesting to see what would happen to a TED 1000 power monitor in the situation you describe.

Clearly more tests of different types and equipment would be useful.

Some references:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_arc

From http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/370/jcalvert/dischg.htm.html is the following:
"The voltage of a carbon arc in air is given approximately by V = 38.9 + 2.0x + (16.6 + 10.5x)/I, where V is in volts, I in amperes, and x is the arc length in millimeters."

.

wow interesting... I appreciate the detailed response. The 2 situations where with the old spin meters. There is testing equipment that can help determine the problem? The beginning definition of the arch "An electric arc is the form of electric discharge with the highest current density". it goes on to say " at the cathode the current density may be as high as one megaampere per square centimeter" Would that mean that during the arch the meter would register that circuit as pulling a megamp(roughly) for the 1-3 seconds it archs?

 

[highpowered]

It's possible that a poor connection can cause a severe voltage drop under load, which could cause loads, especially motor loads, to draw excessive current trying to start or stay running under the lower voltage. It will definitely damage equipment if the voltage stays low for very long. Neutral problems will not effect meter accuracy on a normal 120/240 service, since the meter voltage is line to line and the neutral is directly connected to the neutral bus.

thankyou thats what i wanted to know!

 

[ggunn]

thankyou thats what i wanted to know!

If that is what is happening you should be able to read the excess current with a clamp ammeter.

 

[gar]

130718=1848 EDT

highpowered:

In a series circuit with an arc present the current is determined by the external impedance of the circuit and the non-linear impedance of the arc. External impedance means all of the series impedance in the series loop excluding the arc.

If you had a 200 V battery, a 1 ohm resistor and the arc in series, then the current will not exceed 200 A. But it will be less as determined by the voltage drop across the arc. Assume a 60 V arc drop, the current will be 140 A.

Current density and current are two different things. If current is uniform in a round wire and 100 A is flowing thru the wire, then for a wire diameter of 1 mm ( area = 0.785 sq-mm ) the current density is 127 A per sq-mm. Change the diameter to 0.01 mm. Now the area is 0.000,079 sq-mm, and the current density is 1,273,000 A per sq-mm.

What was being said is that the area of the arc at the electrode is very small and thus the temperature is very high producing a very large emission of electrons in a very small space from thermionic emission.

.

 

[ggunn]

130718=1848 EDT

highpowered:

In a series circuit with an arc present the current is determined by the external impedance of the circuit and the non-linear impedance of the arc. External impedance means all of the series impedance in the series loop excluding the arc.

If you had a 200 V battery, a 1 ohm resistor and the arc in series, then the current will not exceed 200 A. But it will be less as determined by the voltage drop across the arc. Assume a 60 V arc drop, the current will be 140 A.

Current density and current are two different things. If current is uniform in a round wire and 100 A is flowing thru the wire, then for a wire diameter of 1 mm ( area = 0.785 sq-mm ) the current density is 127 A per sq-mm. Change the diameter to 0.01 mm. Now the area is 0.000,079 sq-mm, and the current density is 1,273,000 A per sq-mm.

What was being said is that the area of the arc at the electrode is very small and thus the temperature is very high producing a very large emission of electrons in a very small space from thermionic emission.

.

However, I believe that the proposed scenario is that of a synchronous motor in series with a resistive arc. Would the motor not draw more current in response to its lower supply voltage brought on by the voltage drop in the arcing connection?

 

[gar]

130719-1111 EDT

ggunn:

I don't believe the load has been defined.

However, no matter what the load is, the external circuit to the arc defines the maximum circuit current in combination with the non-linear impedance of the arc.

.

 

[ggunn]

130719-1111 EDT

ggunn:

I don't believe the load has been defined.

However, no matter what the load is, the external circuit to the arc defines the maximum circuit current in combination with the non-linear impedance of the arc.

.

Of course it does, but I was referring to the scenario postulated in post #7. A motor may draw more current when the voltage across its terminals drops and maybe an arc could cause that to happen.

 

[highpowered]

Thank you all for your responses I love this forum in the sense that I am a feild electrician and almost all of what you say is knowledge that I don't get in the feild. To conclude the question I have is that there is now electrical abnormality that would cause a high electric bill in a residence only the load from the circuit does. Also that there is no testing tool other than my amp meter that can be used for a high lectric bill. Further more nuetral loads are not figured into the meter? to this I add the invention of the nuetral scrubber. It is designed to lower your electric bill by scrubing the main nuetral bar at the panel slowing the flow of return electricity before it returns to grid i believe. Would this be something I could suggest to clients that claim this problem? I get calls for this problem alot almost all clients claim they dont use a.c.? is it just them leaving tv on or some other common load?

 

[ActionDave]

Thank you all for your responses I love this forum in the sense that I am a feild electrician and almost all of what you say is knowledge that I don't get in the feild. To conclude the question I have is that there is now electrical abnormality that would cause a high electric bill in a residence only the load from the circuit does. Also that there is no testing tool other than my amp meter that can be used for a high lectric bill. Further more nuetral loads are not figured into the meter? to this I add the invention of the nuetral scrubber. It is designed to lower your electric bill by scrubing the main nuetral bar at the panel slowing the flow of return electricity before it returns to grid i believe. Would this be something I could suggest to clients that claim this problem? I get calls for this problem alot almost all clients claim they dont use a.c.? is it just them leaving tv on or some other common load?

The electric meter reads line to line and line to neutral loads.

There is no such thing as a neutral scrubber. I know I couldn't live with myself if I sold one.

 

[ceknight]

There is no such thing as a neutral scrubber. I know I couldn't live with myself if I sold one.

Yes there is. It comes in lavender scent, even: http://www.soluclean.co.uk/neutral-scrubber-drier-floor-cleaner-lavender-fragrance-p-65.html

Sorry, had to do it. I'll blame it on the heat.

 

[ActionDave]

:lol:It doesn't slow down electrons though, just germs and odors.

 

[ceknight]

:lol:It doesn't slow down electrons though, just germs and odors.

I reckon you gotta start somewhere, eh?

 

[ptonsparky]

As I stated before, usage is what causes a high electric bill. Along with that the the solution is free, shut things off. Not scrubbers, not power factor correction for residential use, not the untold number of items that guarantee a lower bill for five easy payments of $19.95.