Portable Generator Hookup

[Cruisinfanatic]

This is what I'd like to do. Can't find anywhere saying interlocks are legal for portable generator hookups.

 

[Little Bill]

This is what I'd like to do. Can't find anywhere saying interlocks are legal for portable generator hookups.

You may not find anywhere that states the interlocks are compliant for a genny install.
However some AHJ are fine with it and some want the kit to be listed for the brand of panel they are going in. I don't think the interlock brand is listed for any panel, but I could be wrong.

Square D has one for their panels and I think some other brands do too.

IMO, the interlocks are perfectly fine if installed properly.
And for sure better than the "hacked up" and dangerous ways in which some are installed!:happysad:

 

[ActionDave]

There is nothing in art. 702 that says "using an interlock kit is ok." There is nothing that says "you must use a transfer switch" either.

I agree with Little Bill. Interlock kits are a good way to make a safe portable geeny install. Never had a problem with any of my local inspectors approving them.

 

[jwelectric]

There is nothing in art. 702 that says "using an interlock kit is ok." There is nothing that says "you must use a transfer switch" either.

I agree with Little Bill. Interlock kits are a good way to make a safe portable geeny install. Never had a problem with any of my local inspectors approving them.

702.5 Transfer Equipment. Transfer equipment shall be suitable for the intended use and designed and installed so as to prevent the inadvertent interconnection of normal and alternate sources of supply in any operation of the transfer equipment. Transfer equipment and electric power production systems installed to permit operation in parallel with the normal source shall meet the requirements of Article 705 .

Transfer equipment, located on the load side of branch circuit protection, shall be permitted to contain supplemental overcurrent protection having an interrupting rating sufficient for the available fault current that the generator can deliver. The supplementary overcurrent protection devices shall be part of a listed transfer equipment.

Transfer equipment shall be required for all standby systems subject to the provisions of this article and for which an electric utility supply is either the normal or standby source.




Exception: Temporary connection of a portable generator without transfer equipment shall be permitted where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation and where the normal supply is physically isolated by a lockable disconnecting means or by disconnection of the normal supply conductors.

 

[iwire]

702.5 Transfer Equipment. Transfer equipment shall be suitable for the intended use and designed and installed so as to prevent the inadvertent interconnection of normal and alternate sources of supply in any operation of the transfer equipment. Transfer equipment and electric power production systems installed to permit operation in parallel with the normal source shall meet the requirements of Article 705 .

Transfer equipment, located on the load side of branch circuit protection, shall be permitted to contain supplemental overcurrent protection having an interrupting rating sufficient for the available fault current that the generator can deliver. The supplementary overcurrent protection devices shall be part of a listed transfer equipment.

Transfer equipment shall be required for all standby systems subject to the provisions of this article and for which an electric utility supply is either the normal or standby source.




Exception: Temporary connection of a portable generator without transfer equipment shall be permitted where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation and where the normal supply is physically isolated by a lockable disconnecting means or by disconnection of the normal supply conductors.

Mike, I don't see what you are trying to point out. You made 705 bold in red but I doubt the OP is running parallel with the utility, I think they are trying to avoid that.

 

[jwelectric]

Mike, I don't see what you are trying to point out. You made 705 bold in red but I doubt the OP is running parallel with the utility, I think they are trying to avoid that.

Sorry but it was NECPlus that made it bold and in red. Yes a transfer switch is required and if he is in a state that requires a Third Party listing then he may have problems at inspection if it gets inspected

 

[iwire]

Sorry but it was NECPlus that made it bold and in red. Yes a transfer switch is required and if he is in a state that requires a Third Party listing then he may have problems at inspection if it gets inspected

I assumed you had made it red.

That said I don't see a requirement for a transfer switch.

I see a requirement for transfer equipment and a great many AHJs accept the interlock kits.

If interlock kits are not acceptable that means the long established use of Kirk keys is also a propblem. http://www.kirkkey.com/default.aspx?Page=Products

 

[Cruisinfanatic]

Thanks for everyone's opinions. I feel better about doing this now.
I bought the generator locally from someone who was moving. It came with a cord for hookup to a box on the house, but had double ended male plugs. Even I know this is nuts.
He also showed me his breaker box. Had the correct breaker, but no breaker interrupt in it. Just step by step instructions from the electrition on how to apply power via generator. I told him that he'd likely have problems getting the house inspected for sale. Told me it had been inspected and passed by both home inspector and the bank inspector. Was quite shocked at this.
Mike

 

[jwelectric]

Please excuse my misuse of the word switch as this is my point;
702.5 Transfer Equipment.
Transfer equipment shall be suitable for the intended use

But
Temporary connection of a portable generator without transfer equipment shall be permitted where……………

And If you live in an area where the use of any equipment mandates that the equipment be listed by a NRTL then it must be listed

In NC any and all equipment installed in anything that does not pertain to the manufacturing process must be listed by a NTRL. I don’t know about the laws in upstate NY

In my personal opinion those type interlocks should be outlawed unless there is some way to know for sure that all contacts of the main breaker is open. During a power failure there is no way to know this without testing. There have been many documented cases where a breaker did not open when in the off position.

On a side note; inspectors are no different than electricians such as me. I will be the first to admit that I don’t know everything and I will bet that there are a lot of inspectors out there that haven’t looked at a code book since passing their qualifying test. The total extent of their knowledge is what they hear and see.

Here in NC it doesn’t matter if the inspector accepts something or not, the electrician is still liable for any noncompliant installation. Edited to say good morning

 

[Cruisinfanatic]

Another question. Am I right that 10/4 cable is what should be used to wire between outside box and the panel?
Also, can the outside box be really close to the inside panel? May a couple feet?

 

[iwire]

Please excuse my misuse of the word switch as this is my point;
702.5 Transfer Equipment.
Transfer equipment shall be suitable for the intended use

Lets look at the section

702.5 Transfer Equipment. Transfer equipment shall be
suitable for the intended use and designed and installed
so as to prevent the inadvertent interconnection of normal
and alternate sources of supply in any operation of
the transfer equipment. Transfer equipment and electric
power production systems installed to permit operation
in parallel with the normal source shall meet the requirements
of Article 705.

It is my opinion and apparently the opinion of many AHJs that the interlock kits meet the underlined words above.

But
Temporary connection of a portable generator without transfer equipment shall be permitted where?????

Interesting but IMO the OP is talking about using transfer equipment.

And If you live in an area where the use of any equipment mandates that the equipment be listed by a NRTL then it must be listed

Yes, if you live in an area that requires that. Many do not .... thankfully they still allow inspectors and AHJs to think.

In NC any and all equipment installed in anything that does not pertain to the manufacturing process must be listed by a NTRL. I don?t know about the laws in upstate NY

I don't believe upstate NY requires all products to be listed.

In my personal opinion those type interlocks should be outlawed unless there is some way to know for sure that all contacts of the main breaker is open. During a power failure there is no way to know this without testing. There have been many documented cases where a breaker did not open when in the off position.

Well if you believe that you should put in a proposal for it.

There are also times where transfer switches do not operate properly, some types use two standard breakers interconnected by a mechanical arm. Listed and all.

On a side note; inspectors are no different than electricians such as me. I will be the first to admit that I don?t know everything and I will bet that there are a lot of inspectors out there that haven?t looked at a code book since passing their qualifying test. The total extent of their knowledge is what they hear and see.

Nice backhand, the short version is if they do not see it like you do they are ignorant. :roll:

Here in NC it doesn?t matter if the inspector accepts something or not, the electrician is still liable for any non-compliant installation.

I think that is pretty much universal, however things can be compliant even if you personally wish them not so.

 

[ceb58]

Please excuse my misuse of the word switch as this is my point;
702.5 Transfer Equipment.
Transfer equipment shall be suitable for the intended use

But
Temporary connection of a portable generator without transfer equipment shall be permitted where?????

And If you live in an area where the use of any equipment mandates that the equipment be listed by a NRTL then it must be listed

In NC any and all equipment installed in anything that does not pertain to the manufacturing process must be listed by a NTRL. I don?t know about the laws in upstate NY

In my personal opinion those type interlocks should be outlawed unless there is some way to know for sure that all contacts of the main breaker is open. During a power failure there is no way to know this without testing. There have been many documented cases where a breaker did not open when in the off position.

On a side note; inspectors are no different than electricians such as me. I will be the first to admit that I don?t know everything and I will bet that there are a lot of inspectors out there that haven?t looked at a code book since passing their qualifying test. The total extent of their knowledge is what they hear and see.

Here in NC it doesn?t matter if the inspector accepts something or not, the electrician is still liable for any noncompliant installation. Edited to say good morning

What about the statement from UL? If under 15 Kw and connected to the premis wiring then it must be installed as a separately derived system with the neutral switched.

 

[jwelectric]

What about the statement from UL? If under 15 Kw and connected to the premis wiring then it must be installed as a separately derived system with the neutral switched.

In the original post the type of generator was not mentioned. If it is one of the types that has the receptacles mounted on the frame of the generator and in their area there is a requirement that anything connected to the premises wiring is to be listed then you are right, it must be connected as a SDS, see UL FTCN for the installation instructions included with the listing of the equipment

 

[jwelectric]

Nice backhand, the short version is if they do not see it like you do they are ignorant. :roll:

No not my intentions at all. Most of the way I see things are as described by these same people as in most cases I am just repeating what I hear them say at the IAEI meetings I attend, you know I only know what I hear.

I think that is pretty much universal, however things can be compliant even if you personally wish them not so.

You are correct as there are many things I wish were changed. This is why you see my name in a lot of the ROPs

 

[qcroanoke]

There is nothing in art. 702 that says "using an interlock kit is ok." There is nothing that says "you must use a transfer switch" either.

I agree with Little Bill. Interlock kits are a good way to make a safe portable geeny install. Never had a problem with any of my local inspectors approving them.

I agree, I have installed a few and will do so again if it means making sure that the person doesn't make up a suicide cord and back feed his house through the dryer outlet. Because "someone has told them how to do it."
And swearing to me "oh, I will never turn on the generator until the main is off" is huuey too.
When your house is dark and the weather sucks you will forget......
You can buy these interlocks for $69.00 as opposed to $300.00 to $400.00 for An MTS.
They are not listed but they meet the intent of article 702.
And as Iwire said most AHJ's accept them. May not want to, but if it keeps someone from getting hurt or worse they will let it go.

 

[eHunter]

Lets look at the section



It is my opinion and apparently the opinion of many AHJs that the interlock kits meet the underlined words above.



Interesting but IMO the OP is talking about using transfer equipment.





Yes, if you live in an area that requires that. Many do not .... thankfully they still allow inspectors and AHJs to think.



I don't believe upstate NY requires all products to be listed.



Well if you believe that you should put in a proposal for it.

There are also times where transfer switches do not operate properly, some types use two standard breakers interconnected by a mechanical arm. Listed and all.



Nice backhand, the short version is if they do not see it like you do they are ignorant. :roll:



I think that is pretty much universal, however things can be compliant even if you personally wish them not so.

Some are major manufacturers are advertising listed generator interlock devices/kits.
GE, Cutler Hammer, Siemens and Schneider/Square-D all offer breaker interlock kits that according to their support line and website FAQs are a UL67 Listed Accessory and are claiming NEC compliance.
Some of the lesser known device manufacturers are claiming NRTL listed or recognized and are claiming to be NEC compliant.

http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/Dispatcher?REQUEST=PRODUCTS&pnlid=7&famid=16&catid=9987&id=gik

http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-PowerMark-Gold-Load-Center-Generator-Interlock-Kit-THQLLX1/100674082

http://static.schneider-electric.us.../Accessories-QO-LK-PK-QO-QON/40273-809-02.pdf

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/intern...-murray/docs/Standby_Power_Interlock_Kits.pdf

https://www.platt.com/CutSheets/Eaton/Generators-MechanicalInterlockCovers.pdf

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/ct_249650.pdf

 

[Cruisinfanatic]

Thanks for all the advice. I was always under the impression that I needed to buy 10/4 wire for this hookup between the inlet box and panel. Now I see some places that say 10/3 with ground romex can be used. Is that ok?

 

[roger]

Thanks for all the advice. I was always under the impression that I needed to buy 10/4 wire for this hookup between the inlet box and panel. Now I see some places that say 10/3 with ground romex can be used. Is that ok?

Please contact an EC in your area to help you with this. I am closing this thread in accordance with forum rules.

This site is designed for:

?Contractors
?Electricians
?Engineers
?Inspectors
?Instructors
?Other electrically related individuals
* This NEC? Forum is for those in the electrical and related industries. Questions of a "How-To" nature by persons not involved in the electrical industry will be removed without notice.

If anyone wants to continue the conversation of interlock kits please start another thread.

Thanks

Roger