a bit of a rant

[petersonra]

So, we had a meeting and decided it would be a good idea to use flexible wire for the larger wires in our control panels. UL now allows us to use ferrules to terminate them without having to worry about whether the terminal is designed for fine wire or not.

A pretty handy thing for larger wires.

So I look at the most common wires we would use hem on. It turns out it would likely be 350 and 500 kcm.

So off I go to talk to the various vendors of ferrules and tools to crimp them on.

For whatever reason, many of the ferrule manufacturers do not make ferrules over 350 kcm. So, they go off my list.

None of them seem to make a decent tool but recommend various other manufacturer's tools for the purpose.

So, I get me a couple bags of sample ferrules of various sizes and invite various tool salespeople to come in with their ferrule crimping tools to demonstrate them.

First in comes Panduit about 3 weeks ago. Their tool goes up to 400 kcm. Makes a really nice crimp. You have to run it through the electric tool twice, but it comes out nice. But, no 500 kcm die.

Next in comes Burndy about 2 weeks ago. They have a range taking tool which is slick since you can cheat if you have to on the ferrule size. Makes a serious crimp. I crimp a ferrule onto a 350 and bring it out to the shop. The crimped on ferrule will not go into the terminal on the Cb that is designed for 500 kcm wire. The tool deforms the ferrule and makes it much wider. Salesman says - we have a different tool that will not make it as wide.

Burndy comes back today. The 4 nib tool makes a squarish crimp instead of a triangular crimp, but it also makes the ferrule too big for a 350 wire with ferrule to fit into a terminal designed for 500 kcm wire.

Greenlee is coming in Friday. I am hoping their tool will actually work.

One would think that the guys that design these tools would have realized this issue with ferrules and dealt with it somehow.

I can get the uncrimped 350 ferrule into the lug designed for 500 kcm wire.

 

[kwired]

So, we had a meeting and decided it would be a good idea to use flexible wire for the larger wires in our control panels. UL now allows us to use ferrules to terminate them without having to worry about whether the terminal is designed for fine wire or not.

A pretty handy thing for larger wires.

So I look at the most common wires we would use hem on. It turns out it would likely be 350 and 500 kcm.

So off I go to talk to the various vendors of ferrules and tools to crimp them on.

For whatever reason, many of the ferrule manufacturers do not make ferrules over 350 kcm. So, they go off my list.

None of them seem to make a decent tool but recommend various other manufacturer's tools for the purpose.

So, I get me a couple bags of sample ferrules of various sizes and invite various tool salespeople to come in with their ferrule crimping tools to demonstrate them.

First in comes Panduit about 3 weeks ago. Their tool goes up to 400 kcm. Makes a really nice crimp. You have to run it through the electric tool twice, but it comes out nice. But, no 500 kcm die.

Next in comes Burndy about 2 weeks ago. They have a range taking tool which is slick since you can cheat if you have to on the ferrule size. Makes a serious crimp. I crimp a ferrule onto a 350 and bring it out to the shop. The crimped on ferrule will not go into the terminal on the Cb that is designed for 500 kcm wire. The tool deforms the ferrule and makes it much wider. Salesman says - we have a different tool that will not make it as wide.

Burndy comes back today. The 4 nib tool makes a squarish crimp instead of a triangular crimp, but it also makes the ferrule too big for a 350 wire with ferrule to fit into a terminal designed for 500 kcm wire.

Greenlee is coming in Friday. I am hoping their tool will actually work.

One would think that the guys that design these tools would have realized this issue with ferrules and dealt with it somehow.

I can get the uncrimped 350 ferrule into the lug designed for 500 kcm wire.

How about using different lugs instead of ferrules?

Maybe use breakers or other devices with studs and some crimp on type lugs?

 

[petersonra]

How about using different lugs instead of ferrules?

Maybe use breakers or other devices with studs and some crimp on type lugs?

It is mostly a Siemens CB problem. I have used crimp on lugs a few times, but the problem is that it just does not always work out. You have to terminate the wire on both ends. Sometimes I can do it relatively easily on one end, but the other end is just painful.

The 1600A CBs, for instance, do not have a good way to attach lugs to. It has some goofy jig that the CB actually bolts to and the terminals bolt to that. I am just trapped into using their lugs on that breaker. It feeds into the bottom and out the top with 5 or 6 500 kcm wires. I have to put in a piece of aluminum cable tray to hold the wires up. There is like 200 pounds of wire there. Heck, the steel terminals weigh almost 10 pounds each. I am switching to the aluminum ones.

The Siemens motor starters and soft starters are much easier to deal with.

 

[kwired]

It is mostly a Siemens CB problem. I have used crimp on lugs a few times, but the problem is that it just does not always work out. You have to terminate the wire on both ends. Sometimes I can do it relatively easily on one end, but the other end is just painful.

The 1600A CBs, for instance, do not have a good way to attach lugs to. It has some goofy jig that the CB actually bolts to and the terminals bolt to that. I am just trapped into using their lugs on that breaker. It feeds into the bottom and out the top with 5 or 6 500 kcm wires. I have to put in a piece of aluminum cable tray to hold the wires up. There is like 200 pounds of wire there. Heck, the steel terminals weigh almost 10 pounds each. I am switching to the aluminum ones.

The Siemens motor starters and soft starters are much easier to deal with.

Maybe you are cursing at the wrong vendors then and need to direct it at the breaker supplier

 

[petersonra]

Maybe you are cursing at the wrong vendors then and need to direct it at the breaker supplier

based on my limited experience with other Cb manufacturers, they all seem to have the same problem. for some reason the terminals on CBs tend to have round openings that are no bigger than needed for the maximum size wires. other devices do not necessarily have these limits.

 

[iwire]

Could you go with pin terminals instead?

You can get them in straight, offset and 90 degree angled.

http://www.ilsco.com/e2wShoppingCat...9&parentLink=2100001183:3100012197:3100012329

 

[petersonra]

Could you go with pin terminals instead?

You can get them in straight, offset and 90 degree angled.

http://www.ilsco.com/e2wShoppingCat...9&parentLink=2100001183:3100012197:3100012329

at $50 each? we have done that but it gets expensive.

 

[StarCat]

The Times we live in

The Times we live in

" One would think that the guys that design these tools would have realized this issue with ferrules and dealt with it somehow. "

I deal monthly with a variety of people that interface with parts and services that are not accountable to really know or do much of anything.
It mystifies me how anyone can hold a job or receive a paycheck while only a few left in our society are carrying their weight or dealing with real matters and getting results. On some level " we " as a collective have to pay the price for a larger contingent of persons who simply don't have to care.

 

[petersonra]

" One would think that the guys that design these tools would have realized this issue with ferrules and dealt with it somehow. "

I deal monthly with a variety of people that interface with parts and services that are not accountable to really know or do much of anything.
It mystifies me how anyone can hold a job or receive a paycheck while only a few left in our society are carrying their weight or dealing with real matters and getting results. On some level " we " as a collective have to pay the price for a larger contingent of persons who simply don't have to care.

I don't know if it is about caring or not. I think they were tasked to come up with a solution but probably do not really understand the problem completely, and were not given the time to learn the totality of the problem. the solution works well where it works. It does not work for my problem at all. I suspect the marketing geniuses that drive product develop at these places do not have the expertise and/or experience to be deciding the scope of the development work, but they are anyway.

 

[cowboyjwc]

See, Bob gave you an answer and now it's a price thing too. How can we help you if your aren't willing to spend the money?

You don't worry about money, we'll make it right if it cost's every penny you've got.

 

[petersonra]

See, Bob gave you an answer and now it's a price thing too. How can we help you if your aren't willing to spend the money?

You don't worry about money, we'll make it right if it cost's every penny you've got.

and that is about the size of it too. a set of pin connectors for some of these projects is more than the profit margin. can't afford very many of those.

 

[Wenty4]

a bit of a rant

Sounds like you need to be using a HyLug (might be the same as a pin terminal) instead of a ferrule, either way finely stranded wires must be crimped. The cost in a cost to be dealt with, maybe write it off as educational

 

[petersonra]

Sounds like you need to be using a HyLug (might be the same as a pin terminal) instead of a ferrule, either way finely stranded wires must be crimped. The cost in a cost to be dealt with, maybe write it off as educational

They are just so pricey that it is uneconomical. better to fight with the regular wire.

Every branch circuit would need at least 12 pin terminals. so every branch circuit would cost an extra $600 just in pin terminals.

I cannot spend an extra $1200 or $1800 a couple of times a month for every long before it gets noticed.

 

[ActionDave]

I cannot spend an extra $1200 or $1800 a couple of times a month.....

Any chance you could pass that duty on to me. I think I could help.

 

[templdl]

Is there a way that crimp on ring tongue terminals can be used and then bolt them on? That's what I convinced my OEMs to do when they insisted on using hypalon cable in their panels. I was only made aware of their problem after they complained that the terminals were failing and they had to be convinced of the error of their way.
One of the failures involved a 250AF breaker where one terminal failed. When the heating and cooling cycle of the termination caused the termination to loosen up to a point where it starter to arc, the arc increased to a point where it involved the ground which extended to a phase to phase arc. The result was no pretty.

 

[petersonra]

Is there a way that crimp on ring tongue terminals can be used and then bolt them on? That's what I convinced my OEMs to do when they insisted on using hypalon cable in their panels. I was only made aware of their problem after they complained that the terminals were failing and they had to be convinced of the error of their way.
One of the failures involved a 250AF breaker where one terminal failed. When the heating and cooling cycle of the termination caused the termination to loosen up to a point where it starter to arc, the arc increased to a point where it involved the ground which extended to a phase to phase arc. The result was no pretty.

I have used them in that way, but it is difficult to get it to work on many breakers as there is often only one hold down bolt hole where the terminations are at. That lets me put 2 lugs there back to back, but it is very hard to put more than two crimp on lugs on one bolt.

in some cases the contactors or soft starters come with box terminals that do not deal with crimp on lugs well.

 

[templdl]

I have used them in that way, but it is difficult to get it to work on many breakers as there is often only one hold down bolt hole where the terminations are at. That lets me put 2 lugs there back to back, but it is very hard to put more than two crimp on lugs on one bolt.

in some cases the contactors or soft starters come with box terminals that do not deal with crimp on lugs well.

Good point. There is also an issue with maintaining L-L and L-G clearances.
I guess that bolting ring tongue terminals be used when it works well and then address the others when it's needed. I know that one breaker manufacturer offers a custom nut for breaker tabs that do not have threaded holes for bolts.

 

[petersonra]

Good point. There is also an issue with maintaining L-L and L-G clearances.
I guess that bolting ring tongue terminals be used when it works well and then address the others when it's needed. I know that one breaker manufacturer offers a custom nut for breaker tabs that do not have threaded holes for bolts.

The clearances are relatively easy to deal with using heat shrink. The clearances are only a problem between energized parts that are not insulated.

Siemens has what are called "nut keepers" one can order in lieu of terminals on the VL series. It does not look like something that would be especially helpful.

 

[templdl]

The clearances are relatively easy to deal with using heat shrink. The clearances are only a problem between energized parts that are not insulated.

Siemens has what are called "nut keepers" one can order in lieu of terminals on the VL series. It does not look like something that would be especially helpful.

It certainly appears as though you explored all of you options. From a manufactures point of view with their product offerings of is difficult to meet the needs of all of their customers. If there was a reasonable return of the cost of R&D and engineering I'm sure that they would be all over it like flies on dodo.
What intrigues me is the manufacture's effort to cram more amps in a smaller package and then end shooting yourself in the foot when it becomes more difficult to terminate on the smaller device. And of course the design engineers have no clue as to how difficult they are making for those in the field.

 

[petersonra]

It certainly appears as though you explored all of you options. From a manufactures point of view with their product offerings of is difficult to meet the needs of all of their customers. If there was a reasonable return of the cost of R&D and engineering I'm sure that they would be all over it like flies on dodo.
What intrigues me is the manufacture's effort to cram more amps in a smaller package and then end shooting yourself in the foot when it becomes more difficult to terminate on the smaller device. And of course the design engineers have no clue as to how difficult they are making for those in the field.

These breakers are designed around panelboard applications, not industrial control panels. many panel board manufacturers have gone to flexible bus bar for some of the larger conductors as it deals quite nicely with several different issues. I have considered it, but the flexible bus bars are quite pricey for us, probably due to the limited volume as much as anything else. panelboard manufacturers can also use back connections and other techniques that simpllfy their wiring that are not readily available to me.