ground path to outbuilding??

[nizak]

Question. I have an outbuilding that is currently being fed by a 3 wire service directly from the meter can at the house underground and into a main breaker panel with 2 driven ground rods. The panel serves as the service disconnecting means with a main breaker(neutral bonded to can). Customer is going to be installing copper water line, and RG6 cable to structure and adding a small kitchenette. My question is does the copper need to be bonded, and if so does that change how the current panel configuration is set up? Do the neutrals and grounds need to be separated at that point? Seems as though I encountered this years ago, but don't remember the solution. Thanks.

 

[John120/240]

Question. I have an outbuilding that is currently being fed by a 3 wire service directly from the meter can at the house underground and into a main breaker panel with 2 driven ground rods. The panel serves as the service disconnecting means with a main breaker(neutral bonded to can). Customer is going to be installing copper water line, and RG6 cable to structure and adding a small kitchenette. My question is does the copper need to be bonded, and if so does that change how the current panel configuration is set up? Do the neutrals and grounds need to be separated at that point? Seems as though I encountered this years ago, but don't remember the solution. Thanks.

If the new copper water line has 10 ft or more copper in direct contact with earth, yes you can bond it to the main panel. The only reason to separate you neutrals and grounds is if you changed the location of your main disconnect. The addition of a copper water line does not change any thing.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I believe this may be an ahj call. If a water line is added to the building then IMO, you would have to upgrade the 3 wire feeder to the garage with a 4 wire cable.

Here you would wire it as a sub panel and connect any electrodes to the equipment grounding conductor of the panel. Keep the neutral isolated

 

[nizak]

The copper is in contact with the earth for almost 100', it also ties into the existing house supply copper that is bonded in the basement at the water meter. Just seems that I have something rattling around in the void between my ears that tells me it's wrong.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If the new copper water line has 10 ft or more copper in direct contact with earth, yes you can bond it to the main panel. The only reason to separate you neutrals and grounds is if you changed the location of your main disconnect. The addition of a copper water line does not change any thing.

I think adding the line does change things as the exception in the past was to allow a 3 wire cable as long as their is no direct path back to the main house via, telephone, cable metal water pipe, etc.

Installing those changes the exception and upgrade is necessary

 

[GoldDigger]

I think adding the line does change things as the exception in the past was to allow a 3 wire cable as long as their is no direct path back to the main house via, telephone, cable metal water pipe, etc.

Installing those changes the exception and upgrade is necessary

Or put a dielectric union somewhere in the water line to the outbuilding to avoid breaking the conditions of the exception.

 

[Little Bill]

Question. I have an outbuilding that is currently being fed by a 3 wire service directly from the meter can at the house underground and into a main breaker panel with 2 driven ground rods. The panel serves as the service disconnecting means with a main breaker(neutral bonded to can). Customer is going to be installing copper water line, and RG6 cable to structure and adding a small kitchenette. My question is does the copper need to be bonded, and if so does that change how the current panel configuration is set up? Do the neutrals and grounds need to be separated at that point? Seems as though I encountered this years ago, but don't remember the solution. Thanks.

I believe this may be an ahj call. If a water line is added to the building then IMO, you would have to upgrade the 3 wire feeder to the garage with a 4 wire cable.

Here you would wire it as a sub panel and connect any electrodes to the equipment grounding conductor of the panel. Keep the neutral isolated

Maybe I'm reading the OP wrong, but the way I read it was the outbuilding is fed off the meter and is therefore a separate service which is allowed for a dwelling.

If that's the case, the 3-wire conductors would not have to be changed, nor the grounds/neutrals separated. The copper pipes might need to be bonded but that is all I see that needs to be done if I'm correct in my reading of the OP.

 

[suemarkp]

I agree with how you read it -- these are Service conductors not feeders. No different than the next door neighbor's house with metal city water piping.

I don't know who'd run that much underground copper water pipe outside. It is an ideal place to run plastic...

The metal water piping is going to have to be grounded or bonded to the separate building's Service regardless if how much is in the dirt. You use a conductor sized per 250.66. The only difference is where that connection is made -- if in the ground with metal for 10' or more, that connection must be made within 5' of where it enters the building. If plastic pipe in the ground, then you can connect the bond wire anywhere along the piping system.

You'll need an intersystem bonding bar for the CATV connection at the remote building too.

Lets hope they don't skimp on the neutral and that it doesn't deteriorate.

 

[Little Bill]

I agree with how you read it -- these are Service conductors not feeders. No different than the next door neighbor's house with metal city water piping.

I don't know who'd run that much underground copper water pipe outside. It is an ideal place to run plastic...

The metal water piping is going to have to be grounded or bonded to the separate building's Service regardless if how much is in the dirt. You use a conductor sized per 250.66. The only difference is where that connection is made -- if in the ground with metal for 10' or more, that connection must be made within 5' of where it enters the building. If plastic pipe in the ground, then you can connect the bond wire anywhere along the piping system.

I guess you would have to use "plastibond" here!:lol:



You'll need an intersystem bonding bar for the CATV connection at the remote building too.

Lets hope they don't skimp on the neutral and that it doesn't deteriorate.

Here, we aren't required to install an intersystem bonding bridge unless utilities (cable, satellite, phone, etc.) are run to the separate building.

 

[suemarkp]

Was assuming they'd switch to metal once inside the building.