Wire sizes

[Besoeker]

Something as a follow up to the same topic in another thread.
We have 14AWG being a larger conductor that say, 18AWG.
Bigger number, smaller wire. It kinda runs contrary to simple logic..

From Wiki:

By definition, No. 36 AWG is 0.005 inches in diameter, and No. 0000 is 0.46 inches in diameter. The ratio of these diameters is 1:92, and there are 40 gauge sizes from No. 36 to No. 0000, or 39 steps. Because each successive gauge number increases diameter by a constant multiple, diameters vary geometrically. Any two successive gauges (e.g. A & B ) have diameters in the ratio of approximately 1.12293 (= dia. B ? dia. A), while for gauges two steps apart (e.g. A, B & C), the ratio of the C to A is about 1.12293? = 1.26098. The diameter of a No. n AWG wire is determined, for gauges smaller than 00 (36 to 0), according to the following formula:

d_n = 0.005~\mathrm{inch} \times 92 ^ \frac{36-n}{39} = 0.127~\mathrm{mm} \times 92 ^ \frac{36-n}{39}

Ouch!

We here in UK, and pretty much elsewhere in the world, us SI units Metric in common parlance.
It is so much simpler. A 4mm² conductor has a cross sectional area of 4mm². And 6mm² is a bit bigger. And a bigger number for a bigger conductor. Logical.
I am familiar with the Brown & Sharpe measurement system.
But I think it is an anachronism.

I can't change what you guys do.
I'm just gently hinting that you are out of step with much of the rest of the world in your use of antiquated units.

 

[mivey]

Now that you have enlightened us, we'll get right on that :roll:.

 

[augie47]

Now that you have enlightened us, we'll get right on that :roll:.

last few attempts have not gone over so well

 

[Besoeker]

Now that you have enlightened us, we'll get right on that :roll:.

I'll check back in a few decades.................

 

[iwire]

Something as a follow up to the same topic in another thread.
We have 14AWG being a larger conductor that say, 18AWG.
Bigger number, smaller wire. It kinda runs contrary to simple logic..

From Wiki:


Ouch!

We here in UK, and pretty much elsewhere in the world, us SI units Metric in common parlance.
It is so much simpler. A 4mm² conductor has a cross sectional area of 4mm². And 6mm² is a bit bigger. And a bigger number for a bigger conductor. Logical.
I am familiar with the Brown & Sharpe measurement system.
But I think it is an anachronism.

I can't change what you guys do.
I'm just gently hinting that you are out of step with much of the rest of the world in your use of antiquated units.

Whatever, your food still sucks.

 

[Besoeker]

Whatever, your food still sucks.

Yeah?



Jamie Oliver....

You might also want to check out Nigella Lawson..........and her food.....

But leave it to the Canadians to lower the tone......

 

[fifty60]

2 things here, one metrics and the other food. Metric system is actually based of the speed of light and is far and away the Scientifically better system. Whenever I see ft/inches I immediately think "approximation" since the entire system is based of the length of King George/Henry/Johns arm. I think celsius and fahrenheit are another good example. Fahrenheit is a simple metric: 100 is very hot to a human and 0 is very cold to a human. That is what Fahrenheit is, based of the perceptions of the common man based of the 0-100 scale. Celsius is based off of the boiling point of water. 0 freeze, 100 boil. Celsius is the better system (it also connects to Kelvin, the absolute zero scale, better) but to use it people would have to acustom themselves to the states of water and not their own comfort level on a scale of 0-100. To digress, I think neither scale deals with latent heat very well.

I think for the US to take the next step in technology, to the "Final Frontiers" to drag Star Trek into the ring here, young students will have to start thinking in the more scientific scales.

Regarding UK food, I have heard that it is actually frowned upon to complain about food in the UK. I wonder how long this feeling has been prevalent (probably 100's of years), and if it is a cause of UK food being less tasty than that of France, etc.

 

[iwire]

I think for the US to take the next step in technology, to the "Final Frontiers" to drag Star Trek into the ring here, young students will have to start thinking in the more scientific scales.

 

[growler]

I can't change what you guys do.
I'm just gently hinting that you are out of step with much of the rest of the world in your use of antiquated units.

But we do drive on the "right" side of the road. :lol:

 

[growler]

Honestly folks I have no idea why we haven't switched to the metric system.

How much do you get when you purchase a "Kilo" of coke, is that a lot?

and I would much rather run 10 Kilometers than 10 miles.

and why us it that we purchase soda by the liter and milk by the gallon?

 

[Besoeker]

2 things here, one metrics and the other food. Metric system is actually based of the speed of light and is far and away the Scientifically better system. Whenever I see ft/inches I immediately think "approximation" since the entire system is based of the length of King George/Henry/Johns arm. I think celsius and fahrenheit are another good example. Fahrenheit is a simple metric: 100 is very hot to a human and 0 is very cold to a human. That is what Fahrenheit is, based of the perceptions of the common man based of the 0-100 scale. Celsius is based off of the boiling point of water. 0 freeze, 100 boil.

Don't confuse metric (SI) with decimal. We could have a decimal Imperial system. For example, we could use the yard as the standard unit for length/distance instead of the metre (m) and ditch feet, inches, furlongs and miles etc. Instead of mm, you could use my or ky instead of km.

The real merit of SI is the way the units hang together. A litre of water is a kilogram. P=Tω. Stuff. Sure, it still needs some constants like π and g. But still a lot simpler than one HP being 33,000ft-lbs/minute. One Volt times one Amp is one Watt. No conversions required.

Regarding UK food, I have heard that it is actually frowned upon to complain about food in the UK.

We sometimes don't complain when we should or where we should. I think that is changing.

I wonder how long this feeling has been prevalent (probably 100's of years), and if it is a cause of UK food being less tasty than that of France, etc.

I suspect, based on personal experience, that's a myth.
I've been around a bit including France a fair number of times. I don't ever recall a memorable meal there. Some of the best and worst food was in Turkey.

Not far from where we live, there is a superb pub/restaurant.
The food is comparable with the best I've had anywhere in the world.

Current menu:

?Stockings Farm? pork belly with BBQ glaze, roast fennel, crackling
and apple and radish salad ?14.75

Pan-roast coley fillet with shrimp bisque, saffron dauphinoise potatoes
and crispy cabbage ?15.25

Polenta crusted free range chicken goujons on classic Caesar salad ?13.75

Grilled plaice fillet with warm lemon potatoes, smoked bacon, capers,
broad beans and samphire ?14.75

Pan-roast new season lamb rump with ratatouille,
salsa verde and crispy onions ?17.75

Courgette, pea and tarragon r?sti with soft poached hen?s egg,
puy lentils and chermoula (v) ?12.25

Today?s ?Stockings Farm? sausages from Amersham (please see specials board) ?11.75

Pan-roast trout fillet with spring onion and horseradish potato scone and pea,
?Sarratt? watercress and mint salad ?15.75

Char-grilled 21-day aged 10oz rib-eye steak with fat chips, ?Sarratt? watercress
and local wild garlic butter ?21.50

A link.
http://www.alfordarmsfrithsden.co.uk/

Hopefully, this should help lay to rest the myth of British food being bland.

 

[sii]

I was told in fifth grade math that the US would be metric by the time I graduated HS....I'm 40 now. :rant:Still waiting Mrs. Shirley!:rant:

 

[Little Bill]

How much do you get when you purchase a "Kilo" of coke, is that a lot?

Depends on the definition of "coke"!

Current menu:

?Stockings Farm? pork belly with BBQ glaze, roast fennel, crackling
and apple and radish salad ?14.75


Hopefully, this should help lay to rest the myth of British food being bland.

[/QUOTE]

Maybe not bland, but Gross!

 

[Besoeker]

Depends on the definition of "coke"!

Maybe not bland, but Gross![/QUOTE]

There are other choices on the menu......

 

[StarCat]

Re: Metric units

Re: Metric units

Most people are given to endorse the system they " came up " on. This is understandable.
The metric system on the whole however is not necessarily more logical and definitely not more relational for people that grew up on US units.
It works good in the chemistry lab.
It is especially useless in HVAC and mechanical system matters as in BAR units for pressure which are way too large or HL/hr which is totally nonsensical, and Centigrade which again is too large a degree of change.
The idea that everyone should be on the same system is also not necessarily a good idea.
The partial conversion has created a large degree of complexity and further problems which waste large amounts of time on many fronts.

 

[Besoeker]

Most people are given to endorse the system they " came up " on. This is understandable.
The metric system on the whole however is not necessarily more logical and definitely not more relational for people that grew up on US units.

More logical? Possibly debatable.
Simpler? Without a doubt. Take, for example the unit of length or distance. The metre. It is the only unit used either by itself or in sub-multiples and multiples. Imperial has inches, feet, yards, furlongs, and miles. And a few other more arcane units like the link, chain, perch, fathom.....stuff

It works good in the chemistry lab.

I've found it to work very well in all the engineering work I do and I've been at it for over four decades.
I grew up with Imperial units at primary school up to about age 11. I still know that an acre is 4840 sq yards and that there are 5280 feet in a mile. At secondary school, age 12 to 18, science, physics an chemistry, was in CGS units. Centimeter, gram, second.
At university the engineering degree (electrical) also had a mechanical engineering content for the first year. The electrical side was then MKS while mechanical lumbered along still in Imperial? Do you know what a slug is and where you would use it? It's a mish mash.
SI, what you might consider as metric is simpler in that it has fewer units with sub-multiples and multiples of them being used where appropriate. But, as I noted in an earlier post, the real merit is the way the units hang together. Having been exposed to, or rather imposed on me, both Imperial and metric, there is not a doubt in my mind which is the easier and more logical of the two.

It is especially useless in HVAC and mechanical system matters as in BAR units for pressure which are way too large.

Approximately 14psi.
Would millibar Pascal better suit your requirements?

and Centigrade which again is too large a degree of change.

A part of our operation makes temperature sensors for medical equipment for the US market.
Calibration is to 0.01degC.

The idea that everyone should be on the same system is also not necessarily a good idea.

I can see a lot of merit in it. And no downside. Other than the obvious cost of conversion. But, if you want to trade internationally, that choice is removed.

The partial conversion has created a large degree of complexity and further problems which waste large amounts of time on many fronts.

I can understand that. As my wife, an American would say, either sh1t or get off the pot.
Just do it.

 

[rbalex]

Interestingly enough, the International Bureau of Weights and Measures still isn't happy with four of the base International System of Units (SI) and the Ampere is one of them. In fact, even the Second was in question as recently as 1999; and the metre (meter) is defined in terms of a Second. (The laws of nature are universal, the laws of men change by the moment or the millimeter)

 

[charlie b]

Whatever, your food still sucks.

This will be a first , but I am going to have to disagree with you on this point. :happyyes: I happen to have enjoyed the food I have tasted in England. I must say I was surprised the first time I ordered fish & chips at a pub, and they brought out the whole fish, head to tail. Once I got over that surprise, I found it quite good. I particularly like English bacon. And of course, the full English Breakfast experience is one to savor long past lunch time.

I will be heading over that way in a few weeks. So I'll get another chance to report in on the bill of fare.

 

[Besoeker]

This will be a first , but I am going to have to disagree with you on this point. :happyyes: I happen to have enjoyed the food I have tasted in England. I must say I was surprised the first time I ordered fish & chips at a pub, and they brought out the whole fish, head to tail.

Minus the head, the tail, filleted, and battered of course!
We sometimes get dish and chips for lunch from a take-away. It's the original British fast food. The couple who run the place, it's called Mr Chips, are Chinese. The woman has all the personality of the speaking clock. The sign above the shop entrance has the "C" in chips missing. But the quality of the food is superb. But it's the best fish and chips we've had anywhere.

By way of contrast, myself and a pump guy were in Hong Kong to look at some frequently failing variable frequency drives - yes, there is an electrical angle to this, however contrived it might be.
They were powering sea water pumps used to circulate water through coolers for the high-rise office blocks. They couldn't be turned of during office working working hours. For that reason, we'd often start at 11:00 at night.
In a way, it was a but surreal. The equipment was by the sea wall and below street level, with access only by a manhole cover. It turned our days upside down so we were usually casting around for dinner in the early hours of the morning. The only places open were real Chinese restaurants. Real in the sense that the customers were local people starting their day or fishermen from the local fishing fleet. The atmosphere is quite different to a typical western restaurant, even a western Chinese restaurant. It's bright, loud, noisy, raucous almost.

English is not spoken and there were no menus, not that they would have been much help anyway. I have a little Mandarin but of course they speak Cantonese in HK. So we pointed to a fish swimming in a tank. Cooked and delivered - totally complete. I was given the head end, complete with head and eyes. The waiter picked out the eyes, a delicacy. And stood over me to ensure that I "enjoyed" the delicacy.

 

[JDBrown]

I've found it to work very well in all the engineering work I do and I've been at it for over four decades.
I grew up with Imperial units at primary school up to about age 11. I still know that an acre is 4840 sq yards and that there are 5280 feet in a mile. At secondary school, age 12 to 18, science, physics an chemistry, was in CGS units. Centimeter, gram, second.
At university the engineering degree (electrical) also had a mechanical engineering content for the first year. The electrical side was then MKS while mechanical lumbered along still in Imperial? Do you know what a slug is and where you would use it? It's a mish mash.
SI, what you might consider as metric is simpler in that it has fewer units with sub-multiples and multiples of them being used where appropriate. But, as I noted in an earlier post, the real merit is the way the units hang together. Having been exposed to, or rather imposed on me, both Imperial and metric, there is not a doubt in my mind which is the easier and more logical of the two.

My experience growing up and going to school in the US has been that, from elementary school on up through university, SI units are used almost exclusively. Oh, they throw in some Imperial units every now and then just to keep you on your toes, but it's pretty rare.

The "problem" (if it really is a problem) is that we use one system for science/engineering, and another system for everyday life. Personally, I don't see what the big deal is. Okay, so I use a different system of measurement in school or at work than I do when I'm talking to my parents ... so what? My grandpa may not understand meters or kilograms, but he doesn't understand AIC ratings either -- and there's nothing wrong with that.

In my opinion, the largest obstacle to the US changing completely to SI (or the metric system) is the simple fact that we don't like being followers and we don't like being told what to do, and there would be a perception (true or not) that we were changing because that's how the rest of the world does it (or, heaven forbid, because the UN wants us to). The specific reason for resisting the change might differ between conservatives and liberals or between Republicans and Democrats, but there's always quite a bit of resistance to changing systems of measurement on both sides of the aisle.

And really, what does it matter to most people? Temperatures matter because you need to know how warmly to dress, or where to set your oven or your thermostat. Distances matter because you need to know how much time and gasoline it will take to get from Point A to Point B. But these things are based on human perception. What's the best system to use? The one you're used to. It's irritating to get a measurement only to have to convert it to something you understand (great, this thing costs 14 Argentine Pesos -- how much is that in dollars?). That doesn't make the measurement bad, it just makes it more difficult to use for someone who is unfamiliar with the units.

Anybody can get used to a new system of measurement. Back when I lived in South America I got used to using buying my meat by the kilogram and telling people they were sissies because they thought 35 degrees was hot. But it's not a question of can we get used to a different system; it's a question of should we have to. For most people, the specific units being used and how easy or difficult it is to convert them or plug them into a mathematical equation is totally irrelevant. All that matters is that they use what they're used to because they have developed an intuitive knowledge of what the numbers mean in the real world. And most people see no reason to re-learn everything they know just to make some egghead's formulas work a little bit nicer.

Personally, I'm okay with metric as long as nobody tries to bring back the 10-day work week. It's a little-known fact that much of the modern metric system originated during the French Revolution. In an effort to remove all traces of religion from France, the new government abolished the old 7-day week with its Judeo-Christian roots in favor of a new 10-day week (with no weekend). This seems hilarious today when one looks at the number of government-mandated holidays in France, but whatever. Like I said, as long as nobody tries to pull something like that, I'm good.

This is all irrelevant, though, if we're talking about wire sizes addressed in the NEC. As long as the NEC defines all of the required parameters for each size of wire (ampacity, DC resistance, AC reactance, cross-sectional area with various types of insulation, etc.), then it doesn't matter what you call the different sizes. Whether you say 4sq.mm., 6sq.mm. and 8sq.mm; or 14AWG, 12AWG and 10AWG; or Bob, Frank and Henry -- it doesn't matter what you call it as long as all of the necessary parameters are defined in the NEC. Now, if the NEC did things like defining ampacity in terms of cross-sectional area instead of calling everything out in tables, I could see a definite argument for naming wire sizes with their cross-sectional area. As things are, however, it doesn't seem to matter much what you call the different sizes of wire, as long as those sizes are defined in the NEC.