400 Amp Service at 200 feet, wire sizes and panel configuration

[bob]

Plus I somehow missed that this is a feeder and not a service. You will have to parallel the run if it is a feeder. 225.30 only permits a building or structure to be supplied by one feeder or branch circuit. By joining the conductors together at both ends, they are considered one conductor, if they are not joined together at both ends they are not parallel conductors per definition and are considered multiple conductors - that is where the violation of 225.30 would be. You can still have up to six disconnecting means, and must group them together, but you have to supply it with a single feeder.

The OP said this was a service lateral. He did not say if the conductors were in conduit or if they were in the same conduit.

 

[suemarkp]

There may be a fix for that in 2014??? This is a common problem in 400A services when you can't mount the meter on the building but it is adjacent. Why should you be driven to an expensive single 400A enclosure instead of the more common paralleled 200A when the meter is on a pole next to the building instead of on it. Not sure though if that change got accepted for 2014 or not. Even if it did, I'd check with the inspector to see if that would be an issue.

 

[Sparky110]

Service lateral on the house

Service lateral on the house

For clarity, this is a service, and it is on the house, which I believe makes the meter/main the main disconnect/service, and my 2oo A panels would be essentially sub-panels.
To wrap this up, I have not heard back from the home-owner, who last said that one of the competitors could do the service for 1500, and I can barely get the wire for 1500, so this is probably an excellent client not to have. Also have done some other research into the clients' business reputation, etc., and looks like I may have dodged a bullet....rule number one for contractors....some jobs you may not want to be awarded. Thanks so much guys, and I will be watching 2014 for this possible change, as I will definitely be doing more of these at some point. Thanks!

 

[kwired]

For clarity, this is a service, and it is on the house, which I believe makes the meter/main the main disconnect/service, and my 2oo A panels would be essentially sub-panels.
To wrap this up, I have not heard back from the home-owner, who last said that one of the competitors could do the service for 1500, and I can barely get the wire for 1500, so this is probably an excellent client not to have. Also have done some other research into the clients' business reputation, etc., and looks like I may have dodged a bullet....rule number one for contractors....some jobs you may not want to be awarded. Thanks so much guys, and I will be watching 2014 for this possible change, as I will definitely be doing more of these at some point. Thanks!

The main thing you cleared up is that the meter/main is on the house. Yes it is the service if it has breakers in it.

If it were on a separate structure, then supplied the house you would be an art 225 application, and would only be allowed one feeder to the house, meaning multiple conductors must be tied together at each end making them effectively one conductor, but could still have up to six disconnecting means grouped in one location at the house. One service can consist of six sets of underground conductors originating at one point but do not have to be tied together at the load end making them a true parallel set of conductors.

 

[Sparky110]

Got the job

Got the job

So it looks like the homeowners will sign our proposal, and we got the job. Planning a parallel run of 4/0 USE, terminating in a 400A Meter Main, with one 200A sub-panel inside the house fed by 4/0 SER run through the crawlspace, and one panel on the outside of the house, either as part of a meter/main, or as a sub-panel setting next to the meter. That panel would feed some of the home loads, and have spaces for the future feeder to the shop. Thanks for all of the advice, and I am really excited to do this job, and I will certainly be checking in with this forum regularly as I run into dicey questions. One I have today....My 300 foot service conductors are our best method of feeding a temporary panel for the construction phase....how will this work, and does the AHJ ever allow you to use one of the parallel runs to power the temporary? I don't know what else we would do, as no one want to run 300 feet of #4 SO. Ideas or comments? Thanks again!

 

[kwired]

So it looks like the homeowners will sign our proposal, and we got the job. Planning a parallel run of 4/0 USE, terminating in a 400A Meter Main, with one 200A sub-panel inside the house fed by 4/0 SER run through the crawlspace, and one panel on the outside of the house, either as part of a meter/main, or as a sub-panel setting next to the meter. That panel would feed some of the home loads, and have spaces for the future feeder to the shop. Thanks for all of the advice, and I am really excited to do this job, and I will certainly be checking in with this forum regularly as I run into dicey questions. One I have today....My 300 foot service conductors are our best method of feeding a temporary panel for the construction phase....how will this work, and does the AHJ ever allow you to use one of the parallel runs to power the temporary? I don't know what else we would do, as no one want to run 300 feet of #4 SO. Ideas or comments? Thanks again!

Kind of depends on what the AHJ will allow. I myself would likely install the 400 amp meter main even if you need to build a temporary support for it and supply temp power from it. Some places the AHJ may not let you supply temp power from the permanent power though. What little power is needed before the main framing gets started can be supplied by a generator in most cases. These days guys only need power for battery chargers most of the time, they may even be able to run those from an inverter in a vehicle, I do that all the time.

 

[Sparky110]

Good solution

Good solution

Thank you. the generator may work. Thanks so much for all of your advice.