Cost of extra receptacles

[jaylectricity]

And sorry for the new page to extend my thoughts, but I met the inspector at that aforementioned kitchen for the final. He was fine with everything and she was fine with the total bill.

I thought she would balk because initially I had told her I could do what she wanted for $1500 and she double-re-iterated that number before I had pulled a single wire or turned a single screw.

Things changed and while I was there she wanted some other stuff done. I ended up billing her time and material for $1939. She was totally fine with it. And she's a neighborhood gal so I may have gained a local friend.

 

[suemarkp]

Well then what business do you have trying to voice an opinion on prices today?

Even then. Somebody offers what you want for a certain price. Were there other people out there offering what you want for a lot less? If not, then yes, the price is justified.

Because I can do the work and know what it costs if I do it. I have no issue with paying for profit and their hourly rate. But I don't want to pay two hours of time for something that takes 15 minutes to do. I did bid out a 400A upgrade to my house and was shocked at the prices. Did it myself for 1/3 the bid price and used better materials. It just pains me to have to pay a lot for something that is cheaper and easier to do when the house is built instead of doing it after the fact.

As JDBrown mentioned, this was for a tract house so at least they offered options. None of the builders seem to want the future owner messing around installing stuff before the house is done either (puts their inspections at risk if someone does something not to code, and there may be insurance issues). I think my next house will have to be a custom one where they are more accomodating. Or it will be a used house that gets a significant make over where there's basically one large electrical mod job to do.

 

[kwired]

Because I can do the work and know what it costs if I do it. I have no issue with paying for profit and their hourly rate. But I don't want to pay two hours of time for something that takes 15 minutes to do. I did bid out a 400A upgrade to my house and was shocked at the prices. Did it myself for 1/3 the bid price and used better materials. It just pains me to have to pay a lot for something that is cheaper and easier to do when the house is built instead of doing it after the fact.

Now you sound exactly like the majority of HO's that contractors are always complaining about. I would expect you to be able to do your own work for less cost. I certainly hope you don't consider overhead and profit in what it costs to do your own work but would add it to the cost if doing it for hire. Do however consider the time you spend on your own project is time you are not profiting from other work you are paid to do.

 

[suemarkp]

I work 40 hrs a week and don't usually have the opportunity for more. So that other time is unpaid and can be used for cost avoidance.

Like I said, I have no issue paying for time and materials, and I would even use a reasonable hourly rate (like $100 to $150/hr depending on their overhead). What burns me is poor management so things are done stupidly. Kind of like the DOT repaving a road, and then 2 week later tearing it up to put in a new sewer pipe and paving a patch down the middle of the new road they just built.

 

[jaylectricity]

Do you pay for your own liability insurance? Did you have to drive a van to your house to do the work?

 

[suemarkp]

I would hope you'd cover those expenses in your rates.

 

[guschash]

This job is a 90x60 pole barn that will be used as a basketball gym. There are 20 lights in ceiling, receptacles for speakers, score board , video , security receptacles , led lights on all side of barn up high, 5 a/c units, office , bath room , storeage area working bench, balcony with receptacles in floor, receptacle for treadmills, lights for balcony, lights over service door. Now when owner said think I want a couple of extra receptacles, I can't just use a feet of mc cable and add a receptacle. I have go to supply house get more cable, boxes , mud rings mc connector etc.. Every time I went I would a box of this box of that so that the next I would have what I needed. I lost count how times I did this. I give a estimate at the beginning but on the add on I went time and material. Hope explains little. In just threw that $150 to get the ball rolling on this thread. I think it really pick up speed.

 

[jaylectricity]

I would hope you'd cover those expenses in your rates.

Yes, I do...by charging $50 for another receptacle.

 

[growler]

I did bid out a 400A upgrade to my house and was shocked at the prices. Did it myself for 1/3 the bid price and used better materials.

Did you keep track of all the hours spent doing this job to see how much you would have made if doing it for someone else ?

You start out with allowing at least 3-4 hours of bidding jobs like this before you get one ( you don't get every job you bid and this time must be paid for). Then you normally have to meet with a power company engineer to make sure the up-grade is OK ( couple hours). Then there is the permit and purchasing supplies, the actual work and clean up. One little thing that most people would not allow for is warranty ( one year required). If even one breaker ever tripps for any reason you are going to get a call.

Take the cheapest bid and count up all the hours spent and see what your hourly rate would have been.

 

[growler]

I think my next house will have to be a custom one where they are more accomodating. Or it will be a used house that gets a significant make over where there's basically one large electrical mod job to do.

You can get anything you want on a custom home but you do pay for it. The same goes for a remodel but the cost is higher than for electrical on a tract home.

There is nothing cheaper than the electrical on a tract home, just ask anyone that ever wired one.

If you wish to buy an older home and rewire it yourself then you can save lots of money but be prepared to spend lots of time working on the project.

 

[suemarkp]

Did you keep track of all the hours spent doing this job to see how much you would have made if doing it for someone else ?

You start out with allowing at least 3-4 hours of bidding jobs like this before you get one ( you don't get every job you bid and this time must be paid for). Then you normally have to meet with a power company engineer to make sure the up-grade is OK ( couple hours). Then there is the permit and purchasing supplies, the actual work and clean up. One little thing that most people would not allow for is warranty ( one year required). If even one breaker ever tripps for any reason you are going to get a call.

Take the cheapest bid and count up all the hours spent and see what your hourly rate would have been.

The quotes were in the $6K range. I spent about $1800 on materials and permits, and used all copper wire (even up the mast). The bidders did not specify how many hours or what materials they would use -- just a bottom line price. They implied it would be a 1 to 1.5 day job with 2 guys. It took me about 40 hours working by myself (about 2 hours a day over a week or two, plus a long weekend when the POCO came). I did a lot of things a typical residential contractor wouldn't have done and some parts would have gone faster with a helper. Yes, there was an email exchange with the power company, and meeting up with the inspector. I know it isn't fair to compare my hours or put a rate to them when comparing to hired help. I'm just saying I think they charge a bit much. But they weren't very thorough on the bid details, so perhaps they just have a standard factor, and throw in some contingency based on what they see when there.

 

[suemarkp]

This job is a 90x60 pole barn that will be used as a basketball gym. There are 20 lights in ceiling, receptacles for speakers, score board , video , security receptacles , led lights on all side of barn up high, 5 a/c units, office , bath room , storeage area working bench, balcony with receptacles in floor, receptacle for treadmills, lights for balcony, lights over service door. Now when owner said think I want a couple of extra receptacles, I can't just use a feet of mc cable and add a receptacle. I have go to supply house get more cable, boxes , mud rings mc connector etc.. Every time I went I would a box of this box of that so that the next I would have what I needed. I lost count how times I did this. I give a estimate at the beginning but on the add on I went time and material. Hope explains little. In just threw that $150 to get the ball rolling on this thread. I think it really pick up speed.

Again, changes after the fact should be different than planned "modifications from baseline". And a gym is not a house...

I'm just saying that the context of the change needs to be assessed. I would have gladly paid $50 for a 50A range outlet in the garage, as they can barely buy the materials for that cost. But putting 5 receptacles instead of 4 in the living room shouldn't cost $50 extra (in 1991...). So the original question of what to charge for an extra outlet has a lot of "well it depends" that go with it. Even worse would be when those changes come after things are started or mostly done.

 

[electricguy61]

Did you keep track of all the hours spent doing this job to see how much you would have made if doing it for someone else ?

You start out with allowing at least 3-4 hours of bidding jobs like this before you get one ( you don't get every job you bid and this time must be paid for). Then you normally have to meet with a power company engineer to make sure the up-grade is OK ( couple hours). Then there is the permit and purchasing supplies, the actual work and clean up. One little thing that most people would not allow for is warranty ( one year required). If even one breaker ever tripps for any reason you are going to get a call.

Take the cheapest bid and count up all the hours spent and see what your hourly rate would have been.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[electricguy61]

Well then what business do you have trying to voice an opinion on prices today?

Even then. Somebody offers what you want for a certain price. Were there other people out there offering what you want for a lot less? If not, then yes, the price is justified.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Sierrasparky]

Where do you guys think age comes into play.
Let's say you are competing in a market of real young workforce where those young ones can perform 1 1/2 times more work than you can in a given day. If you charge by the hour do you charge a lower rate than that of the team of young ones?

 

[junkhound]

Do you pay for your own liability insurance? Did you have to drive a van to your house to do the work?

You put your finger on one of the biggest problems today. How to compete with HO DIY when HO has zero travel costs, pay no income tax on their own labor, no liability insurance, no depreciation on equipment, license fees, continued education to keep certificate, no local B&O tax, no business license etc, etc.

These days one needs to charge $100/hr just to clear $25, eh? At least 'simply' electrical does not have to jump thru the EPA hoops like the hvac folks.

Hmm, maybe that is why I do my own car repairs and etc.?

 

[kwired]

Where do you guys think age comes into play.
Let's say you are competing in a market of real young workforce where those young ones can perform 1 1/2 times more work than you can in a given day. If you charge by the hour do you charge a lower rate than that of the team of young ones?

I was once one of them, now I prefer to not do some of the work I did then, let them have some of those jobs. Someday they will not want to do those jobs either, or will grow their business and have some of their younger help do the majority of that kind of work.

 

[growler]

Like I said, I have no issue paying for time and materials, and I would even use a reasonable hourly rate (like $100 to $150/hr depending on their overhead).

The quotes were in the $6K range. I spent about $1800 on materials and permits. They implied it would be a 1 to 1.5 day job with 2 guys. It took me about 40 hours work.

If it takes 2 guys two 8 hour days that's 32 man hours just doing the work ( we will leave out time for the estimator and any office staff, permits and materials purchase, paperwork).

32 man hours at $150 pr hour is $4800 (labor). That only leaves $1200 to purchase material with probably no mark-up to cover warranty.


I don't know what their labor rate is but it was calculated at less than $150 pr hour.

$6k is a lot of money and if you are confident in your work I don't blame you for trying to save the labor cost but their quote was not unreasonable.

 

[junkhound]

a 400A upgrade to my house

No criticism or negativity, just want to be educated.

I am always curious why someone needs a 400A service for their house? Even at 0.8 PF that is 76kW ! PSE probably only has a 50kVA (or less) distribution transformer to feed you? Only load I can think of would be a couple of huge wonkin' on-demand electric water heater plus +++.

I have never tripped the 200 A breaker on own house (do have 4 sub-panels for expanded breaker space). Have 5T heat pump, electric water heater, range, several 5 HP power tools, 100HP rotary converter running several 5 HP 3 phase motors at a time on CNC metal shop, 2 electric clothes dryers operating at same time, etc.

The EE doing the layout for some Habitat houses just north of Kent questioned PSE last year on having only a 25 kVA transformer to service 5 units with electric kitchens (but gas heat and WH). PSE said 25 kVA OK. I need to drive by one of these days and see if that xfmr is still the same as the 5 units have been occupied for 7-8 months, cause 5 kW per 2 and 3 BR units with families seemed very small.

 

[growler]

I am always curious why someone needs a 400A service for their house?

Grow Lights, lots and lots of grow lights. Even with the high electrical bill it can still be profitable if you plant the right crop.