Relocating a closet panel - AFCI question

[templdl]

The main place you would find it is in an off-grid building using a 120V output inverter or generator and wiring the building through an inexpensive 120/240 panel with more than half of the slots occupied. Agreed they are more likely to just use separate neutrals than a common neutral.

There are also folks who switch between a 120/240 primary system as originally wired to a 120-only backup system using a transfer switch and feeding both L1 and L2 in parallel.
Those who end up doing it right have 200% neutrals (or 50% ungrounded wires, depending on how you want to look at it ).

Many people would not call that a real life though.

However, is this happening in real life or are you citing situation that could happen? I'm referring to a 3w 120/120v "home run" with a 200% neutral unless its a custom engineered produce and not residential.
I just want to separate theory, that is something that could happen, as opposed to real life situations.

 

[Sierrasparky]

However, is this happening in real life or are you citing situation that could happen? I'm referring to a 3w 120/120v "home run" with a 200% neutral unless its a custom engineered produce and not residential.
I just want to separate theory, that is something that could happen, as opposed to real life situations.

Has to be fantasy

 

[GoldDigger]

Has to be fantasy

I prefer "speculative fiction".

 

[Riograndeelectric]

Yes,
Murray - Siemens, Sqd i think
Have a murray siemens on the truck[/QUOTE)
GE and I think Cutler hammer makes one in the Br series

 

[Ohms law]

I'm relocating a closet panel, in a slab house, two stud section over on the same wall but in the bedroom.
In the closet won't pass inspection and the home owner wants to keep the closet and not remove the doors and make it part of the bedroom. I am gutting the old fuse panel and using it to splice the 8 circuits that I need to move. What are the requirements, if any for AFCI protection?

My local AHJ only requires us to use AFCI protection if we are installing a larger service than the original or if you extend, add, etc.... If we do a service change out, swap service size for service size, then we do not have to add AFCI protection unless we extend or add to the circuit.

My AHJ does not require us to AFCI protect when making a splice in a junction box to reach the main panel or sub-panel with no device. they do not see this as an extension of the circuit.

Don't know if that helps.

 

[templdl]

Has to be fantasy

Too my point exactly.

 

[delfadelfa]

Thanks Ohms law, I will be installing a 12x12 jbox in place of the old panel and the run 1 inch emt to the new sub panel about 25 feet away. Half of the old circuits will reach the sub panel but the other half will be well over the 6 foot rule for extending circuits. I am switching out the same size service 150amp.

I finished the other panel I moved from the closet to the bedroom and that one passed inspection without any AFCI added but that was less than 6 feet.

If you upgrade a service and have to add AFCI to every required circuit, how do you bid something like that if you don't know if most of them are going to trip when you flip them on?
Around here we use to run two wire romex between 3ways and 4ways for a long time until they changed the code. So the hot side and return side may sometimes be fed on two different circuits. I have found the AFCI aways trip if they are wired this way and you have to run a three wire between the switches to solve the problem. A upgrade on an old house could be a nightmare.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I prefer "speculative fiction".

or more precise - Electrical Fiction.

 

[GoldDigger]

I have found the AFCI aways trip if they are wired this way and you have to run a three wire between the switches to solve the problem.

It is actually the ground fault detection that is tripping in this case, and a GFCI would have the same problem.
But if you try one of the current models of AFCI that leave out the ground fault detection function it might work just fine.
Of course that would also arguably eliminate most of the usefulness of an AFCI breaker in the first place.

 

[Ohms law]

If you upgrade a service and have to add AFCI to every required circuit, how do you bid something like that if you don't know if most of them are going to trip when you flip them on?
Around here we use to run two wire romex between 3ways and 4ways for a long time until they changed the code. So the hot side and return side may sometimes be fed on two different circuits. I have found the AFCI aways trip if they are wired this way and you have to run a three wire between the switches to solve the problem. A upgrade on an old house could be a nightmare.[/QUOTE]

Well, I don't bid jobs I just do the work. I don't ever have to worry about that stuff. You will just have to fix it, it happens. I haven't ran into anything to serious other than all neutrals tied together from multiple circuits. Usually I find all neutrals tied together in a switch box.

I our service manager will not put that in the bid and tell the homeowner that this will be an extra, time and material. We let them know that this is a possibility and we won't know until we start the job. We usually don't find anything to crazy, nothing we can't handle and still be reasonable on the homeowners wallet.

i will say I did have a service change out that a previous homeowner change out his service and finished his basement with no inspection! The new homeowners had taken them to court since they lied on legal documents and we where 10.5 hrs over from the bid. The previous homeowner had open air splices and wires running on the floor, it was a mess. We would trace a circuit and find 12 awg wire starting at the panel and end up having 14awg farther down the circuit. This guy was an idiot. Lucky the new homeowners don't have to pay a dime. The guy even used a bare ground as a traveller.

 

[Sierrasparky]

If you upgrade a service and have to add AFCI to every required circuit, how do you bid something like that if you don't know if most of them are going to trip when you flip them on?
Around here we use to run two wire romex between 3ways and 4ways for a long time until they changed the code. So the hot side and return side may sometimes be fed on two different circuits. I have found the AFCI aways trip if they are wired this way and you have to run a three wire between the switches to solve the problem. A upgrade on an old house could be a nightmare.

You can always use a electronic switch in these situations

 

[GoldDigger]

You can always use a electronic switch in these situations

Assuming that you can find one switch box with load, hot, and neutral all from the right circuit.