CE Marked Disconnects

[fifty60]

I am looking at a series of disconnects that were apparently CE marked at one time. The same product line no longer has the CE mark. The reasoning was that the Fuses (CC and J-type for example) are not tested to IEC standards, but are tested to UL standards.

Does this mean that no Disconnect manufactured to be used in the United States can bear the CE Marking? Does a disconnect have to designed and tested with IEC Fuses to bear a CE Marking?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

There is no reason it can't have a CE mark, but that mark is not acceptable as a listing mark, and if your the product being installed is required to be listed, it will have to have a make from on of the listing agencies that is acceptable to the AHJ.

I guess, in your specific case, if the disconnect does not accept fuses that comply with the CE standards, then the disconnect would not be able to have a CE mark.

 

[fifty60]

I spoke with Eaton and they said their fused disconnects cannot have a CE Marking because they are engineered to use standard J type fuses. Are there, in general, different types of fuses used in Europe than used in the US? When I look at the LPJ fuses, I see that they are UL listed and CE marked. Eaton is telling me they used to CE mark their Disconnects but do not anymore. They said

"...the products they have today are designed around the dimensions of fuses they will accept (UL type, not IEC) and there was no CE testing done. A CE mark won't exist because the J-class fuse is not a European design"

Does this just mean they have not done the IEC testing on the product as a whole? Or does it mean that anything with J-type fuses cannot be used in Europe, and therefore cannot have a CE Mark.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I really don't know the answer, but if the don't expect to sell the product in the European market, why would they bother putting the CE mark on the product? That mark really doesn't mean anything in the North American market.

 

[Jraef]

Are there, in general, different types of fuses used in Europe than used in the US?

Yes, absolutely. Totally different and not compatible. The fact that some US based fuse mfrs put a CE listing on the fuses is kind of a joke, because if those fuses show up in Europe, nobody can find replacements for them anyway, so they yank them out and put in THEIR kind of fuses. it's the same here when we get a piece of equipment in from Germany that has DIAZED style fuses on them, they look like this:



So are you making something here, then sending it overseas and that's why you want a CE label on the disconnect? Because if not, then CE labeling means nothing here. If that is the case, you need to source an export disconnect switch AND fuses. The switch will have to be special ordered. Siemens can sell you one (although good luck on finding anyone there that knows this), but you will likely have to wait 8+ weeks for it to come in.

 

[petersonra]

There are actually some disconnect switches that have replaceable fuse blocks. The switch itself is CE marked but the fuseblocks are not unless they are a CE style fuseblock.

 

[fifty60]

Basically any fused disconnect that does not have CE style fuses for CE style fuses cannot really be used as a disconnect for CE Marked equipment. It sounds like Eaton is privy to this, I wonder if the other manufacturers will follow suit. The last thing I want to do is start using a lot of these disconnects and then having the manufacturer come to me and say "Whoops, these are not really CE marked"

Siemens? Sounds like they will be pretty expensive. Are there any other manufactures out there that make true CE fused disconnects that are UL98 equivalent? The Low Voltage Directive does not require that a disconnect be included if there is documentation provided to the customer stating that they need to install their own disconnect. It is much less strict than the Machine Directive.

What are the major differences between our fuses and CE marked fuses?

 

[jim dungar]

You are mistaking the intention of a CE marking. Things built to US standards and listed by UL can also be CE marked.
CE and construction standrds are two different animals.

Standard, everyday, run-of-the-mill, North American fuses can be marked CE. See page 26 (number 36) of this link from Cooper/Bussmann for their FRS-R fuse, which is arguably one of the most common fuses used in the US.
http://www1.cooperbussmann.com/pdf/25f32cf8-913b-4934-8a5f-3b404d08e890.pdf

Do you need equipment built to IEC, or DIN, standards with CE markings, or do you want something built to UL standards but also with CE markings? What about British Standards?

I have never been involved with a US equipment manufacturer who would use anything other than standard US fuses, expect when building to specific customer specifications.

 

[fifty60]

The intention is to sell product in the European Union. I need to find a disconnect that is capable of disconnecting power to mixed motor and non motor loads (the European equivalent to a UL98 disconnect (may I jest and say an IEC-98 switch))

I am very hesitant to use any "CE" marked disconnect that uses standard fuses (like "J" type). Especially after a prominent company has decided to remove the CE mark from one of their lines of disconnects because of the fuses (which were J type).

I am trying to find a solid "UL98" equivalent disconnect that is fully "CE" marked to use on product intended for the EU.

 

[Jraef]

If it were me, I would design based on a non-fused disconnect and a separately mounted fuse block. Then depending on the destination, put in an appropriate fuse block and fuses that are commonly available in the destination country. You will not be able to find a fuse type that is common to both standards, regardless of having a CE label or not.

Actually, if it were me, I'd use a circuit breaker...

EU fuse supplier, many of the IEC style fuses sold by Bussman and their kin are actually made by this company. They make the fuse holders as well. But don't ask these guys for fuses common in the US, they struggle with that.

http://www.siba-fuses.com/front_content.php

 

[fifty60]

To digress a bit from CE talk, can someone please tell me if I can use a UL489 circuit breakerr in place of a UL98 disconnect? My initial goal was to find a fused rotary disconnect that was CE marked. Perhaps I should be looking for a Circuit Breaker instead a fused disconnect. Would a good place to start be a UL489 Circuit Breaker that also had IEC ratings and a CE mark? This is for a main power disconnect located on the machine.

 

[jim dungar]

To digress a bit from CE talk, can someone please tell me if I can use a UL489 circuit breakerr in place of a UL98 disconnect?

In my experience breakers are the common main disconnect everywhere in the world, except the US which for some reason (historical?) favors fuses.

 

[Jraef]

To digress a bit from CE talk, can someone please tell me if I can use a UL489 circuit breaker in place of a UL98 disconnect? My initial goal was to find a fused rotary disconnect that was CE marked. Perhaps I should be looking for a Circuit Breaker instead a fused disconnect. Would a good place to start be a UL489 Circuit Breaker that also had IEC ratings and a CE mark? This is for a main power disconnect located on the machine.

Yes you certainly can. And yes, several of the major mfrs offer product lines that will meet worldwide standards for breakers, including UL489 for use here. Siemens and Eaton for sure, I have used both. I would imagine that Sq. D, being owned by Groupe Schneider now, also has them. The tricky part though is that they all still have older NEMA/UL only designs, so you have to specifically ask for the "worldwide" product lines (or words to that effect). For instance with Siemens, it's the "VL Series", but the older vintage ITE breakers, although still sold and generally slightly less expensive, do NOT always meet worldwide standards. With Eaton it's the "Series G" that is worldwide, but the older "Series C" is not, and it too tends to be the cheaper line. So just do your due diligence.

 

[fifty60]

The problem with a Circuit Breaker is that I would like the disconnect to be readily accessible. With a fused/non fused disconnect I can order a door mounting kit so that the handle is accessible outside of the enclosure. With a circuit breaker, i have never seen a door mounting kit. It seems like the Circuit Breaker would always have to be accessed by opening an enclosure.

 

[jim dungar]

With a circuit breaker, i have never seen a door mounting kit.

You have been leading a sheltered life.

There are a wide variety of 'through the door' and 'flanged mounted' disconnect mechanisms offered by breaker manufacturers.