Use a 600W Toggle dimmer in a 20A circuit?

[Hormel1144]

GE toggle dimmers only specify that the maximum load for a 1 gang (unganded) dimmer is 600W @120V. This equates to all of 5 Amps.

It thus appears that a load of 1800W on a 15 amp circuit would severely overload the device, let alone 2400 watts on a 20 A circuit and that there would need to be some kind of protection built in to the device prevent it from becoming a fireworks display long before the panel breaker could trip the circuit.

Do you know if, in fact, there is such protection built in and if the NEC allows such devices on a normal residential 15A or 20A circuit?

Thanks

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Standard dimmers are rated 600 watts however they make 2000 watt dimmers. Usually when you have that many lights we have more than one switch. I have never had 1800 watts on one switch so generally that is not an issue. What are you trying to do

 

[iwire]

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/round-2-use-600w-toggle-dimmer-20a-circuit-60222/#post1118047

 

[GoldDigger]

GE toggle dimmers only specify that the maximum load for a 1 gang (unganded) dimmer is 600W @120V. This equates to all of 5 Amps.

It thus appears that a load of 1800W on a 15 amp circuit would severely overload the device, let alone 2400 watts on a 20 A circuit and that there would need to be some kind of protection built in to the device prevent it from becoming a fireworks display long before the panel breaker could trip the circuit.

Do you know if, in fact, there is such protection built in and if the NEC allows such devices on a normal residential 15A or 20A circuit?

Thanks

The devices are not protected by the breaker. That is very common with both wired and plug-in loads. Breakers are there to protect the wiring.
It is your responsibility when installing the dimmer to make sure that the connectec loads are within its capacity.
You could easily have three separate controller lighting runs, each with its own dimmer, on a single 20 amp branch circuit.
Sometimes a homeowner would put larger bulbs into recessed lights or add heads to track lights and overload the dimmer. Not much the electrician can do about it.

If using 600W rated dimmers bothers you, think about the fact that there are also ones rated for only 300W. And that if you put multiple dimmers in a multi-gang box you may need to derate them. And that the center one is a 3-gang box will be derated more than the outside two.

I can see, sometime in the distant future (next year at the rate we are going?) there will be fixtures, switches, and dimmers that all communicate back with the panelboard which will warn you if you are using things beyond their capability. The built in nudge/nanny.
And sometimes it will get things wrong and you will be screwed.

 

[qcroanoke]

It is your responsibility when installing the dimmer to make sure that the connected loads are within its capacity.

I totally agree.

 

[infinity]

I totally agree.

I agree also, same thing would apply to a 15 amp switch on a 20 amp circuit.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I totally agree.

Agreed

 

[Sierrasparky]

I can see, sometime in the distant future (next year at the rate we are going?) there will be fixtures, switches, and dimmers that all communicate back with the panelboard which will warn you if you are using things beyond their capability. The built in nudge/nanny.
And sometimes it will get things wrong and you will be screwed.

Boy that will just make my day. The wire police!

 

[GoldDigger]

Boy that will just make my day. The wire police!

And the electrician will be part "house whisperer."

 

[mwm1752]

"It is your responsibility when installing the dimmer to make sure that the connectec loads are within its capacity." Agree
A little common sense might help avoid the fireworks.

 

[Hormel1144]

Standard dimmers are rated 600 watts however they make 2000 watt dimmers. Usually when you have that many lights we have more than one switch. I have never had 1800 watts on one switch so generally that is not an issue. What are you trying to do

I am replacing a 20A toggle switch with a dimmer-toggle. It is in an apartment house where all the toswitches are 20A even if they only control a 60w closet light, am I am concerned that the buildng management (who has already demonstrated that they think they know it all when they actually know very little--the abundance of code violations attests to that) will take issue that the dimmer is not certified 20A. The fixture that the dimmer controls is not capable of exxceeding 600w so you and I both know that it s safe, I just need some help in finding where the code addresses it.

 

[Hormel1144]

It is your responsibility when installing the dimmer to make sure that the connected loads are within its capacity.

I totally agree.

I'm glad you agree; so do I. The problem is that it doesn't matter what we agree upon, and it doesn't matter what common sense would dictate. What matters, and it's the only thing that matters, is what the code says about it.

That's what i was hoping the Forum's experts could guide me to. The problem is that on face value, the code would seem to dissalow having any element of a circuit rated at less than the overcurrent breaker protecting that circuit in the distribution panel. Witness that is is not allowed that the wiring from a wall switch to a permanently mounted 60W closet light be less than #14 or #12 for 15A or 20A circuits respectively. The code doesn't appear to factor in that the responsibility "to make sure that the connected loads are within its capacity" has been met. It's dissallowed regardless, period, end of story.

That being said, a logical extension would be that having a 600W dimmer in circuit capable of supporting a 2400W load is similarly disallowed, but the consensus is that it is acceptable. Can anyone point me to where the code specifically addresses this issue.

I don't want to have to deal with some -thinks he knows it all building inspector- who's personal version of common sense is that it is a violation, if all I can counter with is that gee, everyone else says its ok.

 

[Hormel1144]

I totally agree.

I agree also, same thing would apply to a 15 amp switch on a 20 amp circuit.

I'm glad you agree; so do I. The problem is that it doesn't matter what we agree upon, and it doesn't matter what common sense would dictate. What matters, and it's the only thing that matters, is what the code says about it.

That's what i was hoping the Forum's experts could guide me to. The problem is that on face value, the code would seem to dissalow having any element of a circuit rated at less than the overcurrent breaker protecting that circuit in the distribution panel. Witness that is is not allowed that the wiring from a wall switch to a permanently mounted 60W closet light be less than #14 or #12 for 15A or 20A circuits respectively. The code doesn't appear to factor in that the responsibility "to make sure that the connected loads are within its capacity" has been met. It's dissallowed regardless, period, end of story.

That being said, a logical extension would be that having a 600W dimmer in circuit capable of supporting a 2400W load is similarly disallowed, but the consensus is that it is acceptable. Can anyone point me to where the code specifically addresses this issue.

I don't want to have to deal with some -thinks he knows it all building inspector- who's personal version of common sense is that it is a violation, if all I can counter with is that gee, everyone else says its ok.

And since you bring up "same thing would apply to a 15 amp switch on a 20 amp circuit" All the switches in the apartment complex I am working in are rated 20A, even those controlling only a single bulb fixture. Surely, someone feels that this is manditory, especially in view of the fact the everything else was built on the cheap. Can yoh guide me to where the code says that 15A switches are allowed where there the branch circuit won't exceed that 15A, even though 12ga wire is required throughout?

Thank you sincerely.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Have you tried reading the instructions that are provided with the dimmer, or looking in the UL White Book for additional information?

 

[Hormel1144]

Have you tried reading the instructions that are provided with the dimmer, or looking in the UL White Book for additional information?

Yes.

 

[Hormel1144]

Agreed

I'm glad you agree; so do I. The problem is that it doesn't matter what we agree upon, and it doesn't matter what common sense would dictate. What matters, and it's the only thing that matters, is what the code says about it.

That's what i was hoping the Forum's experts could guide me to. The problem is that on face value, the code would seem to dissalow having any element of a circuit rated at less than the overcurrent breaker protecting that circuit in the distribution panel. Witness that is is not allowed that the wiring from a wall switch to a permanently mounted 60W closet light be less than #14 or #12 for 15A or 20A circuits respectively. The code doesn't appear to factor in that the responsibility "to make sure that the connected loads are within its capacity" has been met. It's dissallowed regardless, period, end of story.

That being said, a logical extension would be that having a 600W dimmer in circuit capable of supporting a 2400W load is similarly disallowed, but the consensus is that it is acceptable. Can anyone point me to where the code specifically addresses this issue.

I don't want to have to deal with some -thinks he knows it all building inspector- who's personal version of common sense is that it is a violation, if all I can counter with is that gee, everyone else says its ok.

So, when all is said and none, the question remains, sir, is can you directt me to where the code specifically addresses this issue?

Thank you.

 

[GoldDigger]

I'm glad you agree; so do I. The problem is that it doesn't matter what we agree upon, and it doesn't matter what common sense would dictate. What matters, and it's the only thing that matters, is what the code says about it.

That's what i was hoping the Forum's experts could guide me to. The problem is that on face value, the code would seem to dissalow having any element of a circuit rated at less than the overcurrent breaker protecting that circuit in the distribution panel. Witness that is is not allowed that the wiring from a wall switch to a permanently mounted 60W closet light be less than #14 or #12 for 15A or 20A circuits respectively. The code doesn't appear to factor in that the responsibility "to make sure that the connected loads are within its capacity" has been met. It's dissallowed regardless, period, end of story.

That being said, a logical extension would be that having a 600W dimmer in circuit capable of supporting a 2400W load is similarly disallowed, but the consensus is that it is acceptable. Can anyone point me to where the code specifically addresses this issue.

I don't want to have to deal with some -thinks he knows it all building inspector- who's personal version of common sense is that it is a violation, if all I can counter with is that gee, everyone else says its ok.

And since you bring up "same thing would apply to a 15 amp switch on a 20 amp circuit" All the switches in the apartment complex I am working in are rated 20A, even those controlling only a single bulb fixture. Surely, someone feels that this is manditory, especially in view of the fact the everything else was built on the cheap. Can yoh guide me to where the code says that 15A switches are allowed where there the branch circuit won't exceed that 15A, even though 12ga wire is required throughout?

Thank you sincerely.

First of all, the building wiring system is the thing that is protected by the breaker, not the loads plugged into them.
A simple switch can be considered by some to be part of that wiring system, although it is also a device connected to that wiring system.
Are you really sure that the NEC does not allow you to use a 15A switch for a non-receptacle portion of a 20A branch circuit if the wired loads are limited to less than 15A? The snap switch ratings you see on the box and in the UL file refer to the allowed loads, not to the allowed branch OCPD.
The same thing applies to a dimmer, which is even more of an active device than it is a wiring component.
And if there are both switched lighting outlets and switched receptacle outlets in the building, I would not be surprised if the builder chose to use only 20A switches just to keep inventory costs down and avoid installation errors.

You will not find dimmers which are allowed to be connected to general purpose receptacles for the very reason that you cannot control the connected loads.
The only dimmers allowed to be connected to receptacles are those that require or include special receptacles which only accept special plugs which are to be attached only to lamps.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Yes.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you have. This is a 110.3(B) issue, and you will find the answer in either the supplied instructions or in the UL White Book...maybe even in both.

 

[Hormel1144]

First of all, the building wiring system is the thing that is protected by the breaker, not the loads plugged into them.
A simple switch can be considered by some to be part of that wiring system, although it is also a device connected to that wiring system.
Are you really sure that the NEC does not allow you to use a 15A switch for a non-receptacle portion of a 20A branch circuit if the wired loads are limited to less than 15A? The snap switch ratings you see on the box and in the UL file refer to the allowed loads, not to the allowed branch OCPD.
The same thing applies to a dimmer, which is even more of an active device than it is a wiring component.
And if there are both switched lighting outlets and switched receptacle outlets in the building, I would not be surprised if the builder chose to use only 20A switches just to keep inventory costs down and avoid installation errors.

You will not find dimmers which are allowed to be connected to general purpose receptacles for the very reason that you cannot control the connected loads.
The only dimmers allowed to be connected to receptacles are those that require or include special receptacles which only accept special plugs which are to be attached only to lamps.

Thank you GoldDigger. I know you are trying to be helpful, but: 1 we are not talking about dimmers which are connected to general purpose receptacles, and I never said that "Are you really sure that the NEC does not allow you to use a 15A switch for a non-receptacle portion of a 20A branch circuit if the wired loads are limited to less than 15A? I said that the wire used in the branch circuit cannot be less than the current akllowed by thr OCD.

 

[qcroanoke]

404.14 RATING AND USE OF SNAP SWITCHES
SNAP SWITCHES SHALL BE USED WITHIN THEIR RATING AND AS INDICATED IN 404.14(A) THROUGH (E)
(E) APPROACHES DIMMERS
But it doesn't say what you are looking for.