feed back for invention

[SCG]

So once upon a time I worked in a giant tech fab here in Austin. The guys were installing power to a very expensive tool that is part of micro chip manufacturing process. I believe it was two 2" EMTs. The conduits were installed & wire was pulled. About a month later the equipment was energized and ruined due to the 1/2" hole saw doughnut being lost inside and causing a short. There was a vast meeting with hundreds of electricians seeking to address this issue. They spoke about hole saws being banned, holding boxes inside while drilling enclosures (which is usually the standard), holding linoleum squares with the adhesive side up to catch debris, and various other ideas. I had an idea but kept my mouth shut and incidentally was laid off shortly after when work died out. I built my prototype and filed a patent for it. I have used it many times and its proven pretty valuable. Basically is a c clamp style vise grip with a protruding bottom jaw that has a small mechanic's magnetic dish on the end. You can mark your hole on top of a panel or other enclosure and set the top jaw an inch back which centers the dish underneath. Obviously you can't use a hole saw who's pilot bit protrudes very far (3'4 inch is perfect), but I never do anyway when drilling into something that has wires in it. It also protects wires and parts aside from containing debris. the industry standard seems to be holding a 2100 blank when drilling in the side of a panel to make sure the bit doesn't bite wiring. The other advantage is that it is now a one person operation instead of the apprentice holding a box, or 2100 cover while the electrician drills a hole.

I'm trying to navigate possibly monetizing the idea. Sometimes I feel like it's silly, sometimes I think it's a good idea. Certainly every electrician would not be interested in using this, but in very high dollar facilities, where safely of persons and equipment is very much fixated upon I can see it being a good addition & having a market - especially for hot work protocols. Would you buy one? I would like feed back to see what everyone thinks. One major design limitation that I am trying to work out is using it in busy panels where conduits or cables don't leave room for the dish to clamp flush on the inside - any advice is very much appreciated. Also any advice on manufacturing would be helpful, I can not get any manufacturers in America to return a call or email.

I am a long time reader and have answered many field questions from the wealth of knowledge on this board so thanks for what you do!

 

[GoldDigger]

...Would you buy one? I would like feed back to see what everyone thinks. One major design limitation that I am trying to work out is using it in busy panels where conduits or cables don't leave room for the dish to clamp flush on the inside - any advice is very much appreciated....

I am wondering whether just providing a powerful magnet without the dish would also work. That would require less clearance to get it to fit inside the panel.
I do see that the dish provides a more positive capture and will do a better job of catching metal chips as well as the large blank.
What about a hole saw with an included magnet to grab the disk and hold it inside the cavity of the saw?

If the inside of the panel is too busy with conduits and cable for the tool to fit, I would worry about the pilot drill or the saw hitting something else anyway.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I am wondering whether just providing a powerful magnet without the dish would also work. That would require less clearance to get it to fit inside the panel.
I do see that the dish provides a more positive capture and will do a better job of catching metal chips as well as the large blank.
What about a hole saw with an included magnet to grab the disk and hold it inside the cavity of the saw?

If the inside of the panel is too busy with conduits and cable for the tool to fit, I would worry about the pilot drill or the saw hitting something else anyway.

hm. first thought is, i'd make in out of fiber reinforced polymer, so it's non conductive.
and the cup is better than a magnet, if you are doing SS enclosures, as in a food packing plant.

when i have to cut into something, i usually make a catcher out of duct tape, forming it into
a golf ball sized bulge, and sticking it over where the hole is gonna be. catches everything,
and can be gently pulled off, wadded up in a ball, and tossed. and i always have duct tape.

as far as developing something like this, have you contacted rack a tiers about possibly
marketing the idea and you getting a royalty off it if it does well?

http://www.rack-a-tiers.com/

i'd go there and look a bit....

hm. did that.......

http://www.rack-a-tiers.com/product/212/The-Dirt-Bag-Electrical-Safety-Drilling-Tool

and here.....

http://www.rack-a-tiers.com/inventors

 

[SCG]

hm. first thought is, i'd make in out of fiber reinforced polymer, so it's non conductive.
and the cup is better than a magnet, if you are doing SS enclosures, as in a food packing plant.

when i have to cut into something, i usually make a catcher out of duct tape, forming it into
a golf ball sized bulge, and sticking it over where the hole is gonna be. catches everything,
and can be gently pulled off, wadded up in a ball, and tossed. and i always have duct tape.

as far as developing something like this, have you contacted rack a tiers about possibly
marketing the idea and you getting a royalty off it if it does well?

http://www.rack-a-tiers.com/

i'd go there and look a bit....

hm. did that.......

http://www.rack-a-tiers.com/product/212/The-Dirt-Bag-Electrical-Safety-Drilling-Tool

and here.....

http://www.rack-a-tiers.com/inventors

nice! thanks! I've never seen the dirt bag before, but had the same idea - pictured it circular. Didn't pursue it though (I would have lost the patent search apparently). I wanted something that protects too in case someone looses control of the drill a little and bites in more than they intended. I'll definitely contact them. I looked into polymer as well and its cheaper to manufacture.

 

[SCG]

I am wondering whether just providing a powerful magnet without the dish would also work. That would require less clearance to get it to fit inside the panel.
I do see that the dish provides a more positive capture and will do a better job of catching metal chips as well as the large blank.
What about a hole saw with an included magnet to grab the disk and hold it inside the cavity of the saw?

If the inside of the panel is too busy with conduits and cable for the tool to fit, I would worry about the pilot drill or the saw hitting something else anyway.

I could use a larger magnet & cover the bottom in leu of the dish entirely - nice.

 

[petersonra]

I have seen a fair number of people using magnets of various types to capture this kind of debris.

 

[readydave8]

Marketing product may be harder task than inventing it was, also remember the story of the man who invented Television

 

[K8MHZ]

SCG,

I applaud your ingenuity, but you do realize that the invention is not patentable, now that it has been shown to the public, don't you?

The comment about marketing was spot on, as well. I have many inventions that would probably make good products, but I have no marketing skills, so I just have them for my own use.

A friend of mine invented ScentLok hunting suits and we have had some in depth conversations about inventions. Rule #1 is that no one sees the invention without signing a non-disclosure agreement.

That leaves trying to market a product with no patent and also nothing to keep a company like WalMart from making the product and selling it without paying the inventor any form of compensation.

 

[mgookin]

SCG,

I applaud your ingenuity, but you do realize that the invention is not patentable, now that it has been shown to the public, don't you?

The comment about marketing was spot on, as well. I have many inventions that would probably make good products, but I have no marketing skills, so I just have them for my own use.

A friend of mine invented ScentLok hunting suits and we have had some in depth conversations about inventions. Rule #1 is that no one sees the invention without signing a non-disclosure agreement.

That leaves trying to market a product with no patent and also nothing to keep a company like WalMart from making the product and selling it without paying the inventor any form of compensation.

That's not quite correct. You can't patent something that was published one year ago or longer. He can still file. I would have spent the $150 for a provisional patent prior to publishing it on a website. But he can still do that now. The risk is that someone else saw it and files before OP. Then there's the argument of "first to invent" vs. "first to file" and it's flip flopping right now (not sure which, it's been both way previously). He could file his provisional and shop it to tool companies.

 

[JES2727]

So once upon a time..... I built my prototype and filed a patent for it....

I think he's aware of the patent issues.

 

[renosteinke]

K8MHZ, you're plainly wrong. Patentable? It's his idea, and it always will be.

Is the idea unique enough to receive a patent? Only the Patent Office can say. Off the top, I'd say it is.

Does showing us the prototype mean he has donated it to the public domain? No way. He asked our opinions; he did not say we could use or make it.

Where there is an opening for the less scrupulous is that the hucksters can get away with using the idea now, without penalty, until the patent is issued. The OP doesn't have any protection until the patent is granted; saying 'patent pending' doesn't change that. There's NO protection until the patent is issued. Once he has a patent, though, he can shut down anyone who is using his idea.

On a side note, I do wish you'd remove your reference to "Wal-Mart" and substitute someone appropriate, like Sears. Wal-Mart has not even been accused of trying to finesse / get around patent protections. Sears has been convicted numerous times of doing just that.

Marketing is a completely different topic. Greenlee, Ideal, and now Southwire have successfully marketed all manner of tools that did not have any patent protection. Amana may have invented the microwave oven, but their patents had absolutely nothing to do with cooking, and offered very little protection for that use of microwaves. Mr. Wankel hasn't done too well with his rotary engine, regardless of his patents.

Patent 'cheating' isn't restricted to evil merchants. Plenty of folks have tried to manipulate the patent process. Most of the recent changes in patent law have sought to address these bogus 'inventors' and their "submarine patents." That's what led to the 'first to file' bias of the current law; it's simply amazing how many folks claim to have been "working on" something AFTER that idea has proven successful.

His biggest hurdle may well be the 'not invented here' attitude of many firms. His challenges may be to find funding to make it himself, and a distributor to market it.

 

[Fulthrotl]

His biggest hurdle may well be the 'not invented here' attitude of many firms. His challenges may be to find funding to make it himself, and a distributor to market it.

i'm sure the OP took steps to protect his idea before throwing it up on a chat board.

the problem he faces is marketing, not theft of intellectual property. that is why
i suggested rack a tiers.... they cater to mad inventors/sparkies, and have quite a
few really good products, and some head scratchers.

if you look at your target market, it's pretty small. there are things that get repurposed,
like sugar cane cutters, that become pvc cutters.....

and my Milwaukee 12 volt pvc cutter, that is awesome for cutting branches in trimming
the yard...... :lol:

but.... how many possible sales of this are we looking at? how many electricians will
drop $34.95 for one of these? 5,000? 50,000? 500?

 

[SCG]

SCG,

I applaud your ingenuity, but you do realize that the invention is not patentable, now that it has been shown to the public, don't you?

The comment about marketing was spot on, as well. I have many inventions that would probably make good products, but I have no marketing skills, so I just have them for my own use.

A friend of mine invented ScentLok hunting suits and we have had some in depth conversations about inventions. Rule #1 is that no one sees the invention without signing a non-disclosure agreement.

That leaves trying to market a product with no patent and also nothing to keep a company like WalMart from making the product and selling it without paying the inventor any form of compensation.

I have the patent - thanks though. I had the money to do it realizing it may not go anywhere. Like I said - just feeling out the response. I like using it and if it stays that way its fine. I appreciate everyones honest feed back. I figured if it was to go anywhere it would be big facilities management outfits or titan contractors with giant jobs trying to stay on the front of safety to impress their clients & cut losses such as the one I referenced originally.

 

[K8MHZ]

I have the patent - thanks though. I had the money to do it realizing it may not go anywhere. Like I said - just feeling out the response. I like using it and if it stays that way its fine. I appreciate everyones honest feed back. I figured if it was to go anywhere it would be big facilities management outfits or titan contractors with giant jobs trying to stay on the front of safety to impress their clients & cut losses such as the one I referenced originally.

There is also a market for people like me that just like to buy tools of various designs. Anything that is reasonably priced and looks like it may come in handy one day is a target for my wish list.

The 'No Dog' level was invented by a journeyman electrician and now he sells them everywhere.

www.no-dog.com/

IIRC, he marketed to the IBEW union halls and the levels had the local number stamped on them. I got my first one around 1996. That was 9 years after it was invented and by then it seemed like every electrician in the union had one.

 

[SCG]

There is also a market for people like me that just like to buy tools of various designs. Anything that is reasonably priced and looks like it may come in handy one day is a target for my wish list.

The 'No Dog' level was invented by a journeyman electrician and now he sells them everywhere.

www.no-dog.com/

IIRC, he marketed to the IBEW union halls and the levels had the local number stamped on them. I got my first one around 1996. That was 9 years after it was invented and by then it seemed like every electrician in the union had one.

The no dogs are great - I think about caddy all the time too. They have to make a killing from the fittings they make. I'm the same way with tools - I carry items that most guys don't have. My fav are the PVC bending springs. I learned of them in Afghanistan working with Brits. For small PVC it's so fast and the install looks amazingly clean.

 

[Fulthrotl]

There is also a market for people like me that just like to buy tools of various designs. Anything that is reasonably priced and looks like it may come in handy one day is a target for my wish list.

The 'No Dog' level was invented by a journeyman electrician and now he sells them everywhere.

www.no-dog.com/

IIRC, he marketed to the IBEW union halls and the levels had the local number stamped on them. I got my first one around 1996. That was 9 years after it was invented and by then it seemed like every electrician in the union had one.

that's where i got mine, about 1989. bare aluminum, with the local number on it.
everybody bought one... that was a over a couple thousand of them, just out
of one local.....

 

[ggunn]

that's where i got mine, about 1989. bare aluminum, with the local number on it.
everybody bought one... that was a over a couple thousand of them, just out
of one local.....

Every color but pank (Texan for pink) is shown as being out of stock.