DPDT RELAY'S SWITCHING THERMOCOUPLES

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gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
131010-0822 EDT

fifty60:

See http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/appnotes/00687b.pdf .

Until you provide information on your measurement needs it is hard to judge whether an RTD, thermocouple, or something else would be your best choice.

On the RTD you need to understand how the circuit works. Cable wire resistance is probably large relative to the RTD (typically 100 ohms at 0 C), and cable resistance varies with temperature, thus an error.

If two wires in the cable to the RTD carry the measuring current, and you assume that both of those wires have the same resistance as temperature varies, then you can add one additional wire (don't care about its resistance) to use to measure the voltage drop across one of the two current carrying wires to the RTD. Double this measured voltage drop and you can now determine the voltage across the RTD. Knowing the RTD voltage drop and the current thru it allows a calculation of the RTD resistance. That is what the three wire circuit does.

.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
131010-0822 EDT

fifty60:

See http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/appnotes/00687b.pdf .

Until you provide information on your measurement needs it is hard to judge whether an RTD, thermocouple, or something else would be your best choice.

On the RTD you need to understand how the circuit works. Cable wire resistance is probably large relative to the RTD (typically 100 ohms at 0 C), and cable resistance varies with temperature, thus an error.

If two wires in the cable to the RTD carry the measuring current, and you assume that both of those wires have the same resistance as temperature varies, then you can add one additional wire (don't care about its resistance) to use to measure the voltage drop across one of the two current carrying wires to the RTD. Double this measured voltage drop and you can now determine the voltage across the RTD. Knowing the RTD voltage drop and the current thru it allows a calculation of the RTD resistance. That is what the three wire circuit does.

.

In simpler terms means it is self compensating and calibration for ambient temperature or conductor length or size is not necessary.
 

fifty60

Senior Member
Location
USA
I am considering the following relays https://www.relayspec.com/specs/014400/ry.pdf

I am a little confused on choosing between the bifurcated and non bifurcated. Looking at the data sheet, it looks like the Bifurcated relays are silver-palladium alloy while the non bifurcated are silver and gold plated.

Suprisingly to me the contact resistance is less for the silver gold plated than (50milliohm) than for the bifurcated silver palladium (100 milliohm). The resistance is relatively higher but minimum applicable load is much less for the bifurcated silver palladium alloy bifurcated relays (1VDC 100 microamps) as opposed to 5V and 5 milliamps for the gold plated non bifurcated.

My controller states that it has a 1 degree C temp error for a .4ohm lead resistance on a 2 wire configuration. I will be using a three wire configuration. It states a "standard sensor" error of +/- 2 degree C, which is far greater than the controller error which uses an 18bit A to D converter.

I am waiting on prices of the silver palladium alloy relays, but anticipate them to be much more then the silver-gold plated relays. For using the 3 wire RTD, should I definitely go with the silver palladium alloy bifurcated or would the standard gold plated relays work?
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
121010-1150 EDT

fifty60:

Your approach to solving your problem seems a little strange. So far you have not specified what are your measurement requirements. The selection of a relay seems very secondary at this point.

From my website is the following:
Temperature sensors -- use the Dallas 1-wire temperature sensor DS-18B20.
Temperature resolution is 0.0625 C (0.11 F), i.e. 1/16 C.
The Dallas part alone functions from -55 C to +125 C (-67 F to +257 F).
Dallas specifies accuracy of
+/-0.5 C from -10 C to +85 C (14 F to +185 F), and.
+/-2 C from -55 C to +125 C (-67 F to +257 F).
With individual calibration short time accuracy can approach resolution.
Three wire mode allows simultaneous measurement by all connected sensors, and
allows other control or data bus traffic during temperature measurement.
Simultaneous temperature measurement shortens total loop time per measurement.
Sensors using other components with the Dallas chips can derive power from
the power wire in the three wire mode.
Using the 3 wire bus mode many sensors can have their measurements initiated
simultaneously, and read out faster than once every 2 seconds.
Dallas temperature measurement time is approximately 750 milliseconds (0.75 seconds).
Minimum repetitive cycle time is determined by the number of sensors and baud rate.
I don't think the absolute accuracy is as good Dallas states, but it is close. The stability when calibrated is quite good. The error over a wide temperature range is largely non-linearity as distinguished from stability. As I mention stability can approach resolution for moderate periods of time. The data is digital as received over the bus network. I can easily do 16 sensors simultaneously at a 2 second repetition rate. Without repeaters cable lengths in the 100 ft range are possible.

See the example plot at the end of my web page http://beta-a2.com/wire-1.html . The house temperature is controlled by a Honeywell thermostat. The temperature displayed is from our independent BTW1-22 temperature sensor adjacent to the Honeywell thermostat. Total excursion over 24 hours was 67.4 to 67.9 F. You can see the approximate 0.11 F resolution level in the data. The monitored data tends to correlate with the outside data. And time resolution is about 2 seconds. The variation in the measured temperature is not that of the temperature sensor, but rather the dynamics of the home, furnace, and outside temperature.

.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
there is also the problem with T/C of having additional junctions inline that can affect the reading.
Yes. That's a very good and valid point.
We have made some equipment that uses thermocouples. Mostly for solid state (SCR) control of heaters. The thermocouples come into the panels on the terminal rail as does other field wiring. The panel internal wiring to the sensing relay is also the same cable type as the thermocouple and connected on the same side of the terminal rail as the as the incoming cable to keep the individual conductors together thus avoiding dissimilar metal junctions.

Using relays to switch thermocouples is a bad idea in my opinion.
 

fifty60

Senior Member
Location
USA
I am not 100% sure of the declared veracity of our temperature readings. We primarily use type T T/C's with a controller that has an 18bit A to D converter. How accurate can a type T T/C be? I would think that from the sensor alone we have a +/- 2 degree accuracy. I would not think we would lose very much with the 18bit A to D. So type T's are what we normally use. For Hi temps we use Type K's. The controllers provide PID control for SSR's driving heaters.

We use Honeywell chart recorders and control within a 1 degree of variation. I know variation and accuracy are 2 different things.

I am still trying to figure out how the 3 wire RTD works. Is the rest of the bridge circuit inside of the controller?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
My controller states that it has a 1 degree C temp error for a .4ohm lead resistance on a 2 wire configuration. I will be using a three wire configuration. It states a "standard sensor" error of +/- 2 degree C, which is far greater than the controller error which uses an 18bit A to D converter.

The factor which I think that you are leaving out is the percent change in resistance of the sensor for a change of temperature of 1 degree C.

Let's take and example:

1. Assume that the resistance of the RTD is 100 ohms at 20C.
2. ASTM E-1137 specifes an alpha of 0.00385 ohms/ohm/?C. Translated, that means that for a 100 ohm sensor, a change of one degree C will produce a resistance change of .385 ohms.

So to measure to within one degree, you need to be able to measure the element resistance within .385 ohms (close enough to the .4 ohm figure you cite.) If you are trying to measure the resistance by measuring a voltage across the resistor, you need to be able to measure to .385/100 of the full scale value of the voltage reading. That is .385%. If the controller uses an 18 bit ADC, the resolution of the ADC output will be 1/262144, = 3.8 times 10-6 = .0000038, or .00038%. The ADC is certainly good enough, so the expected error is probably related to the stability and accuracy of the constant current source, the lead resistance variation, and the accuracy (as opposed to the precision) of the voltage measurement.

You would not necessarily expect a digital meter with resolution down to .1 volt on a particular range to also be accurate to .1 volt in a full scale reading.
 

fifty60

Senior Member
Location
USA
Is ASTM-1137 valid for all platinum RTD's? If it were a 1000 ohm RTD, then according to that standard a 1 degree change would cause a resistance delta of 3.85 Ohms?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Is ASTM-1137 valid for all platinum RTD's? If it were a 1000 ohm RTD, then according to that standard a 1 degree change would cause a resistance delta of 3.85 Ohms?

That (or the identical IEC standard) is the standard for all current manufacture platinum RTDs. Older (not sure where the time line changes) RTDs used one of two different platinum alloys that each have a value closer to the .0003925 of pure platinum. Laboratory standard RTDs, which do not have to withstand as hostile an environment and casual treatment, may use chemically pure platinum.

Yes. 3.85 in the case you refer to.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
I'll make it simple... if you are controlling to one degree accuracy, use 4-wire RTD equipment and preferably using the constant current
source (CCS) / DVM method of measurement (as opposed to the null-balance bridge).

INSTRUMENT ENGINEERS' HANDBOOK - Fourth Edition said:
Three-Wire RTDs
Measurement circuits that accept three-wire inputs minimize
the effects of lead wire resistance as long as the outer legs
are equal. However factors such as terminal corrosion and
loose connections can still create significant differences
between the lead resistances seen by the measurement circuit,
because only one ohm of difference between the legs results
in an error of 4.7?F (2.6?C).
As shown in Figure 4.10g, the lead wire C acts as a
sense lead and is part of both halves of the bridge and
therefore cancels out at balance. The lead wires A and B
are in different halves of the bridge and therefore at null
balance R3 = B ? A + RTD. Therefore, now the lead-wire
error is no longer the total lead resistance (A + B), but only
the difference between their resistances (B ? A).
This is a major improvement in reducing the lead-wire
error and is sufficient for the needs of most industrial applications
where the lead-wire lengths are short. However, it is
not a complete solution because wire resistances are guaranteed
only within a 10% tolerance; therefore, if A and B are
identical wires of identical lengths, their resistances can still
differ within the 10% tolerance. So if nominally they both
are 5 ?, in reality one could be 4.5 and the other 5.5 ?. If
this were the case, the difference of 1 ? would still introduce
an error. With a 100-? platinum RTD that error would correspond
to 1/0.385 = 2.6?C.
If the purpose of the temperature measurement is to calculate
the exothermic heat release of a batch reactor, this
error might still be too much. In that application the temperature
rise through the reactor jacket is about 5?F and the span
usually selected for the differential temperature transmitter
is 10?F (5.6?C). In order to identify the end point accurately,
the total heat release must be determined to within 0.5%
maximum error. Because the total heat release is calculated
by multiplying coolant flow with its temperature rise, the
flowmeter itself will contribute 0.25% in error and therefore
one must measure the temperature rise within 0.25%.
An error of 0.25% over an actual measurement of 5?F is
0.0125?F (0.007?C). This is such a small error limit that even
three-wire RTD transmitters may not meet it (their usual error
limit is about 10 times higher). For this reason, in laboratory
situations or for other high-precision measurements, one
might consider the use of four-wire systems, which completely
eliminate the lead-wire effect.
Four-Wire RTDs
Using a four-wire measuring circuit eliminates the above
problem. The design engineer should consider any of the
leading brands of temperature transmitters that accept fourwire
RTD inputs. Direct connection to remote devices with
three-wire extension cable will often produce errors that can
be significant and will vary with environmental conditions.
Four-wire RTDs can be connected either to a null-balance
bridge or to a constant current source. Both will be described
here. Figure 4.10h illustrates a four-wire null-balance bridge.
It operates by switching a triple-pole double-throw switch and
making alternate null-balance measurements in the two configurations.
In one configuration, lead A is measured together
with the RTD resistance, while in the other configuration it is
lead B, so they cancel out completely and the actual value of
the RTD resistance is determined as (R3a + R3b)/2.
Microprocessors and advanced electronics make it feasible
to provide this level of sophistication, but complexity
still costs money, so these designs are relatively expensive;
in addition, they are still limited by contact resistance
considerations. Even the best (gold-plated) switching contacts
contribute some contact resistance. The difference
between these resistances does introduce some miniscule
errors whenever one uses a switching configuration to make
a resistance measurement.
Another way to eliminate the lead-wire error is to use a
constant current source (CCS) in a four-wire RTD configuration.
These miniaturized CCS packages are available at
relatively low costs and provide an accurately constant current
flow of about 2 mA or less to avoid self-heating errors.
As shown in Figure 4.10i, in this configuration the bridge
itself is replaced by a DVM, which measures the resistance
of only the RTD and is insensitive to lead-wire effects as
there is no current flow through the connecting wires. The
source lead resistances (A and B) contribute no error because
the voltage drop is not measured along them.
For the maximum in precision, it would be prudent to make
sure that the current flow (Ic) through the RTD is constant and
that the DVM does draw any current (i = 0), and also to cancel
out the thermocouple (TC) junction voltages at points #1 and
#2. This is necessary because as the two wires (platinum RTD
and copper lead) at #1 and #2 form TC junctions, the millivoltages
they generate will also be registered by the DVM.
This effect is eliminated by offset compensation. The offset
voltage generated by the unintended TC junctions is measured
by the DVM when the CCS circuit is opened and, therefore,
Ic = 0. The smart RTD readout memorizes the voltage sensed
when no current is flowing and corrects the total reading by
that amount when the CCS is connected and Ic is about 2 mA.
In general, two-wire RTDs are only used in heating,
ventilation, and air conditioning (HVAC)-type secondary
applications, three-wire RTDs are still used in some processing
industries, and four-wire RTDs are used in most highprecision
services or in the laboratory.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
I'll make it simple... if you are controlling to one degree accuracy, use 4-wire RTD equipment and preferably using the constant current
source (CCS) / DVM method of measurement (as opposed to the null-balance bridge).
That is, if you ultimately decide to go the RTD route.

Assuming you don't have any RTD equipment currently on line, consider making/converting your control system to FieldBus...

http://www.fieldbus.org/images/stor...tation/2010-10 Event KL/1_fieldbus_basics.pdf

I realize economics among other factors will affect such a decision.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
The factor which I think that you are leaving out is the percent change in resistance of the sensor for a change of temperature of 1 degree C.

Let's take and example:

1. Assume that the resistance of the RTD is 100 ohms at 20C.
I think the OP mentioned thermocouples rather than RTDs
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
131011-0914 EDT

fifty60:

From post #26 you ask how a 3 wire RTD works.

At some remote point there is a temperature variable resistor Rt. To measure its resistance there need to be connecting wires and these may have resistance that is a substantial percentage of Rt, and also be temperature dependent.

Two wires to Rt are needed to provide a current path to produce a voltage drop across Rt for resistance measurement. Call these wires W1 and W2 with resistances R1 and R2.

A constant current source Ic of known value is connected to the series loop of R1, Rt, and R2. If we can measure the voltage Vt across Rt and knowing Ic, then the value of Rt can be calculated. But all of the voltages V1, Vt, and V2 vary with temperature.

If we can measure V1 and V2, and knowing the input voltage Vi to R1, Rt, and R2, then Vt can be determined.

If there were two additional wires W3 and W4, but non-current carrying, connected to Rt, then the voltage Vt could be directly measured at any distance from Rt with an infinite input impedance voltmeter, and this would provide the greatest measurement accuracy for Rt.

To reduce cable cost eliminate wire W3.

Now make an important assumption. R1 = R2 even as temperature varies. Also input voltage Vi is measurable and known. Since wire W4 connects to the junction of Rt and R2 it is possible to measure the voltage across R2. Since R1 = R2 the voltage across Rt is
Vt = Vi - 2*V2.

Even if R1 and R2 are not quite equal, but proportionally track with temperature, then the constant 2 can be adjusted and still get correct compensation.

.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
131010-1037 EDT

fifty60:

Back to your thermocouples.

From http://www.omega.com/temperature/z/pdf/z207.pdf
One degree C change at 0 C is 0.039 millivolts, 39 microvolts.

A thermocouple is a relatively low impedance voltage source. A reasonable assumption is that for a high input impedance meter there is very little current flow and therefore cable length is probably not a significant factor.

If you have two thermocouples to switch between, then I believe that with good design you could use an electronic multiplexer at the input to your A/D converter to switch between the two measuring thermocouples and one cold junction reference.

To work at very low signal levels, microvolts, and avoid DC drift is a problem, but using design techniques it is probably solvable. I have generally worked down to the microvolt range and used autozeroing methods to get long term stable results with straingage transducers.

What multiplexer input is available on your A/D converter and what are its limitations?

.
 

fifty60

Senior Member
Location
USA
Thanks for all of the explanations. I ended up using RTD's and gold plated bifurcated relays. I still have the RTD's coming from off of my panel into terminal blocks, and then terminal blocks to the relay, and from the relay back to terminal blocks then to my controller.

I am satisfied with the relay but am not with the terminal blocks in my design. Can I buy terminal blocks specially designed to use with RTD's?

My controller does have offset so I can compensate for error that way.

Gar, I am not sure what multiplexer I have available, I will try to find out.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
131012-1115 EDT

fifty60:

#16 wire is about 4 ohms/1000 ft. With 1 A DC thru 8" of #16 copper stranded wire I measure 2.7 mV drop. The calculated drop is 1*0.004*8/12 = 2.66 mV.

Used #16 stranded copper on each side of an AB 1492 F1 300 V terminal block. Voltage drop from end to end on the terminal block is 0 mV with 0.01 mV (10 microvolt) resolution @ 1 A DC. About 0.1" from each end of the terminal block the voltage drop from points on the #16 wire was 0.2 mV. Thus, there was a voltage drop at each termainal point of 0.1 mv, and this is a contact resistance of 0.0001/1 = 0.0001 ohms per terminal point. Measuring from the terminal block bar to one wire gets readings from 0.08 to 0.1 mV.

Using an Augut 6PCV-05 which tends to mash the wire more than the AB produced essentially the same result as the AB terminal block.

You can measure your own terminal blocks.

Why would you need a special terminal block for an RTD? A resistance of 0.1 milliohm is going to be small compared to your wire resistance, and relative to a 100 ohm 0 C RTD this is 0.0001 %, or 1 part in 10^6.

.
 

fifty60

Senior Member
Location
USA
Awesome. Thanks for the analysis. At my position I often feel like a 2nd baseman trying to turn 2 on Billy Hamilton. Problems come fast and the solution has to manifest so quickly you would think the solution was really just the problem's echo. I appreciate the help and the Engineering problem-solving archetypes. Thank you.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If you have terminations in the lines to the RTD, just make sure that you use the same type in all three lines. The equipment will compensate for it automatically. As mentioned earlier the third conductor is used to measure and compensate for resistance in the circuit between the probe and the receiving device, which is why we are not limited to conductor length, size, type the way we are with a thermocouple
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
If you have terminations in the lines to the RTD, just make sure that you use the same type in all three lines. The equipment will compensate for it automatically. As mentioned earlier the third conductor is used to measure and compensate for resistance in the circuit between the probe and the receiving device, which is why we are not limited to conductor length, size, type the way we are with a thermocouple

For a thermocouple, the problem is not just resistance.
When extending a TC wire with a dissimilar metal, of even using a different metal as part of the connector, you create interfering TC junctions.
 
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