Show Window Receptacles in an Office Building???

Status
Not open for further replies.

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
I had a rough-in inspection for a dental clinic I'm doing and the inspector asked where my show window receptacles were. Really? in an office building?? He said he'll get back to me and I'm still waiting.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I had a rough-in inspection for a dental clinic I'm doing and the inspector asked where my show window receptacles were. Really? in an office building?? He said he'll get back to me and I'm still waiting.
Just make sure they do not put any advertising signs in the window and you should be OK. :)
Are these bay windows or is there something else about them that may have suggested to the inspector that they were designed to show something off?
Strictly speaking, the code definition does not restrict "show windows" to retail or other store operations. And some inspectors (and their AHJs) consider all of the windows of a fast food restaurant to be show windows because they put temporary signs in them for specials, etc. (Not that any of these ever require power, of course.)

There is at least some implication that it is intended to apply only to first floor windows that face a street or parking lot, but it is not explicit.
 

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
Just make sure they do not put any advertising signs in the window and you should be OK. :)
Are these bay windows or is there something else about them that may have suggested to the inspector that they were designed to show something off?
Strictly speaking, the code definition does not restrict "show windows" to retail or other store operations. And some inspectors (and their AHJs) consider all of the windows of a fast food restaurant to be show windows because they put temporary signs in them for specials, etc. (Not that any of these ever require power, of course.)

There is at least some implication that it is intended to apply only to first floor windows that face a street or parking lot, but it is not explicit.

The windows are about 8 feet wide and start 2 feet off the floor and extend up to 10 feet. They are just big commercial office windows. I can see show window receptacles in a retail environment (gas station, liquor store, fast food restaurant), but not in an office building.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
The windows are about 8 feet wide and start 2 feet off the floor and extend up to 10 feet. They are just big commercial office windows. I can see show window receptacles in a retail environment (gas station, liquor store, fast food restaurant), but not in an office building.
Likewise. :)
Possibly the inspector is just too embarrassed to get back to you?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
He did make a comment that the NEXT tenant might need the receptacles :roll: Since when do we worry about the next tenant, LOL!
It would be interesting to see whether the zoning only allows professional offices or whether a retail store could move in there someday.
Of course the zoning COULD be changed by then too. :lol:
 

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
It would be interesting to see whether the zoning only allows professional offices or whether a retail store could move in there someday.
Of course the zoning COULD be changed by then too. :lol:

There is a Starbucks in the same building. It's a three tenant strip mall type building.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
There is a Starbucks in the same building. It's a three tenant strip mall type building.
In that case I suspect that you are going to lose on this one. <sigh>. No strip mall space keeps the same occupant more than 10 years. (Although the overhead in configuring for a dental clinic does add some presumption of stability.) It is not in fact an office building, as your thread title suggested, just an office occupancy that you are configuring.
Between the higher load calculation and the outlets above the windows, it should not be too tedious to "correct".
 
Last edited:

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
In that case I suspect that you are going to lose on this one. <sigh>. No strip mall space keeps the same occupant more than 10 years. (Although the overhead in configuring for a dental clinic does add some presumption of stability.) It is not in fact an office building, as your thread title suggested, just an office occupancy that you are configuring.
Between the higher load calculation and the outlets above the windows, it should not be too tedious to "correct".

But that goes both ways too. We had a large office building downtown and Burger King carved out a corner of it on the ground floor. So is it no longer an "office building", I hate grey areas.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Just make sure they do not put any advertising signs in the window and you should be OK. :)
Are these bay windows or is there something else about them that may have suggested to the inspector that they were designed to show something off?
Strictly speaking, the code definition does not restrict "show windows" to retail or other store operations. And some inspectors (and their AHJs) consider all of the windows of a fast food restaurant to be show windows because they put temporary signs in them for specials, etc. (Not that any of these ever require power, of course.)

There is at least some implication that it is intended to apply only to first floor windows that face a street or parking lot, but it is not explicit.
Now hear this - we must strictly enforce needing show window outlets - especially on the upper floors of high rise buildings. Never know when someone will be looking at 100'th floor windows (probably with a telescope, unless they just happen to be on 100'th floor across the street) and we can't miss having any advertising, or "showcasing" for those individuals:happyyes:

The windows are about 8 feet wide and start 2 feet off the floor and extend up to 10 feet. They are just big commercial office windows. I can see show window receptacles in a retail environment (gas station, liquor store, fast food restaurant), but not in an office building.
I would say it is a health care facility, that probably does have some office space also, there could be limited "retail" products sold there, but retail is not the primary function of the business.

He did make a comment that the NEXT tenant might need the receptacles :roll: Since when do we worry about the next tenant, LOL!
What if we had a retail tenant in the space? In that case maybe we should we wire the place to art 517 just in case the next tenant is a dental clinic:slaphead:
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
What if we had a retail tenant in the space? In that case maybe we should we wire the place to art 517 just in case the next tenant is a dental clinic:slaphead:
I like that kind of in depth analysis! :)
If the landlord were paying for it, he might actually want the show window outlets, but if it is a tenant-paid renovation, they should not have to pay for what they will not need. JMHO.
Converting back to retail space some hypothetical day will be a big enough job that adding the show window outlets at that time would probably be small change. :)
 

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
Converting back to retail space some hypothetical day will be a big enough job that adding the show window outlets at that time would probably be small change. :)

I said that to him and he said their might not to enough changes to require an inspection...(need a bang head smilie, so I'm importing one from one of my boating sites)
wall_smiley.gif
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I said that to him and he said their might not to enough changes to require an inspection...(need a bang head smilie, so I'm importing one from one of my boating sites)
wall_smiley.gif

Just what is needed to be enough changes? Many places just add one receptacle(not maintain or repair it) and you are supposed to file permit and have an inspection. Good chance that if it is a commercial space and there is an illuminated sign outside, there will be a change there, unless the next tenant that is selling jewelry is too cheap to get rid of the "XYZ Family Dentistry" sign, but that is probably seen by most as a bad business decision to keep such a sign for that kind of business. Next, they probably wonder why they don't get many customers...and why so many people come in inquiring about dental work:roll:
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
I would require it also. When I drive by after it's open and there's that neon open sign in the window, I rather know I had a receptacle for it and not some extension cord running through the ceiling. If you read 210.62, nothing says "excluding dentist office's."
 
Last edited:

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I would require it also. When I drive by after it's open and there's that neon open sign in the window, I rather know I had a receptacle for it and not some extension cord running through the ceiling. If you read 210.62, nothing says "excluding dentist office's."
Ah, but that "open" sign is neither merchandise nor advertising. It is just an informational sign which does not make the window in question a show window.
Nothing excludes a dentist's office, no, but the section clearly refers to the use (or potential use) of the window.
Now the ABC Family Dentistry sign hanging in the window (electrified or not) would make it a show window.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Ah, but that "open" sign is neither merchandise nor advertising. It is just an informational sign which does not make the window in question a show window.
Nothing excludes a dentist's office, no, but the section clearly refers to the use (or potential use) of the window.
Now the ABC Family Dentistry sign hanging in the window (electrified or not) would make it a show window.

I agree. Show window is defined in art 100. An "OPEN" sign is probably not advertising.

What if ABC Family Dentistry frequently applies temporary window art, and possibly none of it being for merchandise or advertising?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I agree. Show window is defined in art 100. An "OPEN" sign is probably not advertising.

What if ABC Family Dentistry frequently applies temporary window art, and possibly none of it being for merchandise or advertising?
In which case they would appreciate having the outlet for the Christmas lights, but it would not be required by code. :)

"It was a picture window, so I hung a picture in it."
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Ah, but that "open" sign is neither merchandise nor advertising. It is just an informational sign which does not make the window in question a show window.
Nothing excludes a dentist's office, no, but the section clearly refers to the use (or potential use) of the window.
Now the ABC Family Dentistry sign hanging in the window (electrified or not) would make it a show window.
How is a "open" sign not advertising? You're advertising that you are open. Look you guys can try to justify it anyway you want, you know why those receptacles are there and you know that they get used all the time.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
How is a "open" sign not advertising? You're advertising that you are open. Look you guys can try to justify it anyway you want, you know why those receptacles are there and you know that they get used all the time.
I might be sold on the open sign being advertising that you are open. I still don't know that show window outlets are required on such an occupancy. Such places seem to be less likely to have such signs in the windows than retail or food service places for one thing. Often they have less windows than some of those other places.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I might be sold on the open sign being advertising that you are open. I still don't know that show window outlets are required on such an occupancy. Such places seem to be less likely to have such signs in the windows than retail or food service places for one thing. Often they have less windows than some of those other places.

If a dental clinic had a neon OPEN sign in the window, I would be less likely to go there. :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top