Grounding question

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cppoly

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New York
Reading on Mike Holt's website,

DANGER: [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Contrary to the believe of many in the electrical industry, grounding metal parts of an electrical system to the earth DOES NOT assist in removing dangerous voltage from line-to-ground faults by opening the circuit overcurrent protection device for the systems that operate at less than 600 volts![/FONT]


Can anyone explain this? Doesn't tripping the circuit breaker remove the dangerous voltage?
 

SG-1

Senior Member
Reading on Mike Holt's website,

DANGER: [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Contrary to the believe of many in the electrical industry, grounding metal parts of an electrical system to the earth DOES NOT assist in removing dangerous voltage from line-to-ground faults by opening the circuit overcurrent protection device for the systems that operate at less than 600 volts![/FONT]


Can anyone explain this? Doesn't tripping the circuit breaker remove the dangerous voltage?

Watch this if you have power point, it is from the Grounding vs Bonding Forum: http://www.tirebiter.net/downloads/ludecke.html
Start with slide 10.

The main concern is that due to the resistance between the ground rod & earth there will not be enough current to trip a 15A circuit breaker.
 

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
Lets say for example you were a runner and to qualify for a race you had to run 3 miles in 30 minutes.
Youve trained all your life and you can run 3 miles in 30 minutes but thats the very best you could ever possibly do, so you run the race and you qualify.
Now, imagine you have to run that same race pushing a wheelbarrow along in front of you loaded with bricks.
Theres no possible way your going to run that same race in the 30 minutes that it takes to qualify so what are you going to have to do?
Your either going to have to ditch the wheelbarrow and the bricks ( Decrease the Resistance) so you can run as fast as you used to, or your going to have to increase your strength to overcome the resistance your pushing to be able to complete the race in the same amount of time that you used to.

Hence the resemblence to using the earth to try and clear a fault.
If the earth had very little resistance,the current could possibly flow quickly,or just enough,back to the neutral point, to facilitate tripping the breaker because the amperage could flow quickly enough to make this happen.
Problem is there is too much resistance in the earth and although the current flows as hard as it can through the dirt trying to make it back to the neutral point, it cant flow quickly enough to make the breaker trip. Therefore you cannot depend solely on a "Ground or Earth " return path to have low enough resistance to make the current flow high enough to make the breaker trip to clear a fault. Not sure but I think the power company's high voltage lines may be able to make this happen, but like the runner, the voltage (Strength) is so much more that thats a different scenario.

Do like I would do in a race like this, go ahead and grab your wheelbarrow full of bricks (The connection to Earth as its required), enter the race, and once the race begins and the gun is fired in the air, (Ground Fault) take a short cut (Ground to Neutral Bond) and unless something odd happens you'll get
 

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
get back the the finish very quickly and win the race. (Breaker trips and Fault Cleared).


Now I'll probably wish I had never even responded.

JAP.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Two graphics from Mike:

touch.gif


touch2.gif
 

aronmatt3

Member
Location
texas, USA
I too cannot understand this, but after going through all the discussions here, I think that I am getting something and of-course the images shared are more helpful, but still I am unable to explain to the others, but got the logic.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
I too cannot understand this, but after going through all the discussions here, I think that I am getting something and of-course the images shared are more helpful, but still I am unable to explain to the others, but got the logic.
Quite simply, electrical potential always wants to neutralize itself by one or more current loops and returning to the source from whence it came. The earth is not the source in most cases other than lightning. The earth is merely a huge reservoir of electrical charges (electrons if you prefer) and dirt is not a good conductor in general, especially very dry dirt.

Couple the above into your interpretation of the presented graphics...
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Simple analogous experiment...

Connect one side of a [fully-charged] battery to one terminal of a [functional and appropriately-rated for the battery] lamp. Connect other terminal of lamp to earth (dirt). Will the lamp emit any light?

Pick a spot of earth (dirt) at any substantial distance away from where the lamp is connected and connect that spot to the other side of the battery. Will the lamp emit light?
 
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don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Look at it this way. The connection to earth does not bring the voltage of the electrical system down to the voltage of the earth under fault conditions. The connection to the earth actually raises the voltage of the earth in the area of the grounding electrode to that of the electrical system. That is exactly what is being shown in the first graphic in post #7.
 

dereckbc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Plano, TX
Think about a fault at the equipment of a simple 120 volt circuit. You have a neutral conductor, hot conductor, and ground conductor of equal length and resistance. At the moment of a fault on the chassis you have a simple voltage divider circuit fromed with the hot conductor and ground conductor. Voltage at the chassis will be roughly half the supply voltage which is 120 volts, so 60 volts on the chassis until the OCPD can operate and remove the voltage potential.

Earth has nothing to do with the circuit, only a reference point which made the circuit dangerous during a fault condition.
 
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