Recept location 210.52

[GoldDigger]

I agree :lol:



Unfortunately, I can't follow what you're trying to describe at all :happysad:

I will make a stab at redescribing it, then I may be forced to try a drawing.

1. To set a reference point, what is your answer to the following hypothetical:
I have a 12' long countertop which runs along one wall of the kitchen and terminates at the walls on either side of that run. The countertop is 32 inches deep.
Does the code require the installation of a receptacle in each of the side walls, regardless of where I place the outlets along the back wall?
I can see arguments for both answer, but I think that the stronger argument is that since the outlets along the back wall are sufficient to cover the full depth of the 32" counter, there is no justification for requiring an extra outlet in the side wall at each end.
2. Now consider a different arrangement:
There is a 32" deep counter running along two 10' kitchen walls which meet at right angles. The two ends are at doorways so that there is no "side" wall to complicate things. There is no sink or range in or near the corner to trigger the Figure 210.52(C)(1) exceptions.

Since the counter "covers" 32 inches of each of the corner walls, do I need to put an outlet within 24" of the corner on both of the corner walls? And incidentally, can I consider the wall length to be continuous around the corner so that a receptacle 6" from the corner of the left wall is considered to cover the next 18" from the corner along the right wall?
One answer is that I have to look at the wall as if it were a continuous line 20' line and install with no more than a 48 inch gap anywhere along that line and no more than 24" at either end.
The second answer is that I have to look at the two ten foot lines and meet the 48" requirement for each of them separately. This could require at least one more receptacle.
The third answer is that a single receptacle less than 24" from the corner on either wall covers the entire area of the countertop defined by the 32" by 32" square one of whose corners is the inside corner of the countertop?
The first answer seems to me to be the most justifiable if you answered question 1 with yes, requiring side wall receptacles, while the third answer is the most justifiable if you answered no to question 1.

If you answered yes to question 1, the OP needs to have a second receptacle in the right wall.
If you answered no to question 1, the OP would not need to add a second receptacle if it were not for that pesky 3" extension.
With the 3" extension, the answer to the OP's question would then depend on your answer to question 2.
And even if you chose answer three to question two, the issue would still revolve around whether you start a new counter segment for the 3" extension, making it less than 12" of wall space or consider the code to require one receptacle in the 27" span because only 24" of it was covered.

 

[kwired]

Based on the drawing would another recep be required--thats my point.?

I don't know that I quite understand the drawing, but isn't it showing a "peninsula" only 3 inches wide? That part that is only 3 inches wide does not require a receptacle. I guess if there is a wall along side that 3 inch portion then maybe it is not a peninsula and there may be valid argument that this is a 27 inch wide counter, or the first 24 is covered by the outlet to the left and after turning the corner we now have a 3x3 inch section that we don't have covered, then the question is does this 3x3 area need covered?

 

[david luchini]

I will make a stab at redescribing it, then I may be forced to try a drawing.

1. To set a reference point, what is your answer to the following hypothetical:
I have a 12' long countertop which runs along one wall of the kitchen and terminates at the walls on either side of that run. The countertop is 32 inches deep.
Does the code require the installation of a receptacle in each of the side walls, regardless of where I place the outlets along the back wall?

No.

I can see arguments for both answer, but I think that the stronger argument is that since the outlets along the back wall are sufficient to cover the full depth of the 32" counter, there is no justification for requiring an extra outlet in the side wall at each end.
2. Now consider a different arrangement:
There is a 32" deep counter running along two 10' kitchen walls which meet at right angles. The two ends are at doorways so that there is no "side" wall to complicate things. There is no sink or range in or near the corner to trigger the Figure 210.52(C)(1) exceptions.

Since the counter "covers" 32 inches of each of the corner walls, do I need to put an outlet within 24" of the corner on both of the corner walls?

No

And incidentally, can I consider the wall length to be continuous around the corner so that a receptacle 6" from the corner of the left wall is considered to cover the next 18" from the corner along the right wall?

Yes.

One answer is that I have to look at the wall as if it were a continuous line 20' line and install with no more than a 48 inch gap anywhere along that line and no more than 24" at either end.

Yes

The second answer is that I have to look at the two ten foot lines and meet the 48" requirement for each of them separately. This could require at least one more receptacle.

No.

The third answer is that a single receptacle less than 24" from the corner on either wall covers the entire area of the countertop defined by the 32" by 32" square one of whose corners is the inside corner of the countertop?

No.

The first answer seems to me to be the most justifiable if you answered question 1 with yes, requiring side wall receptacles, while the third answer is the most justifiable if you answered no to question 1.

If you answered yes to question 1, the OP needs to have a second receptacle in the right wall.

I answered no.

If you answered no to question 1, the OP would not need to add a second receptacle if it were not for that pesky 3" extension.

What 3" extension?

 

[GoldDigger]

What 3" extension?

OK, actually the unspecified-length extension beyond the 24"/27" datum line on the drawing, which looks like maybe 3" deep and 9 or 10 inches wide if close to scale.
Is that enough to force the situation to be treated as a corner rather than just the end of the countertop?

I am also not sure what to do about what the OP draws as a 3" space between the back of the countertop and the wall. Very thick backsplash maybe? Or a chase for the wiring of those receptacles if the wall behind the counter is a concrete outside wall?
Anyway, that sort of undefined space between the countertop and the wall really messes up the simple view the Code takes.

 

[david luchini]

OK, actually the unspecified-length extension beyond the 24"/27" datum line on the drawing, which looks like maybe 3" deep and 9 or 10 inches wide if close to scale.

I read his drawing as showing a 27" counterspace between the range and the end wall, and a 24" deep counter. There are (I think) 24" from the range to the receptacle, then 3" from the receptacle to the end wall, then 24" more inches for the depth of the counter.

 

[resistance]

I read his drawing as showing a 27" counterspace between the range and the end wall, and a 24" deep counter. There are (I think) 24" from the range to the receptacle, then 3" from the receptacle to the end wall, then 24" more inches for the depth of the counter.

There are (I think) 24" from the range to the receptacle

Yup!! Then it (the wall above the countertop) continues 27 inches above the countertop from the receptacle to the end of the countertop<<<The continued wall is in question. I believe the rest of the countertop is not covered per NEC 210.52 C1. So one extra receptacle needs to be installed.

 

[david luchini]

Yup!! Then it (the wall above the countertop) continues 27 inches above the countertop from the receptacle to the end of the countertop<<<The continued wall is in question. I believe the rest of the countertop is not covered per NEC 210.52 C1. So one extra receptacle needs to be installed.

You still only have one 27" wall countertop space. Just one receptacle outlet is required.

 

[resistance]

You still only have one 27" wall countertop space. Just one receptacle outlet is required.

Two are required! The NEC says for each counter space 12? or more you need a receptacle. The more means extra receps are required if one doesn?t cover any countertop wall space over 24?.

 

[GoldDigger]

Two are required! The NEC says for each counter space 12? or more you need a receptacle. The more means extra receps are required if one doesn?t cover any countertop wall space over 24?.

No. The NEC does not say that you need a receptacle for every 12 inches of space. That would really require a receptacle every 24 inches, which seems to be your interpretation. What the NEC says is that a section of countertop which is disconnected from the rest of the countertop (as by a door, a range or a sink) does not need to have a receptacle of its own if the entire disconnected section is less than 12" wide.

Your argument would require a eight foot long straight countertop to have at least seven receptacle locations. In fact you can get by with only two:
One 24" from the left end and one 24" from the right end. Any point along the counter will be no more than 24" parallel to the wall from one of those two receptacles.

Just for kicks (an exercise for the reader), consider the possible differences in the way that the rules for receptacle outlets in walls are constructed. Is it completely analogous or are there some key differences?

 

[resistance]

The NEC does not say that you need a receptacle for every 12 inches of space.

I didn?t say what you said.

Anyway, here is a perfect picture for what I?m trying to say. In the case (picture) below, I?m saying this would need an additional receptacle.Another receptacle where that blank plate is would be perfect.

 

[mjf]

I didn?t say what you said.

Anyway, here is a perfect picture for what I?m trying to say. In the case (picture) below, I?m saying this would need an additional receptacle

Disagree

 

[resistance]

Disagree

Why?? Just saying it means nothing

 

[mjf]

Why?? Just saying it means nothing

Because there is a receptacle 13" from the end of the countertop, satisfying the requirement to have a receptacle within 24" from the end of the countertop.

 

[resistance]

Because there is a receptacle 13" from the end of the countertop, satisfying the requirement to have a receptacle within 24" from the end of the countertop.

Hun? Where does code say that?

 

[resistance]

It says: receptacles shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 24 inches measured horizontally. Maybe I?m lost on this section

 

[Little Bill]

It says: receptacles shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 24 inches measured horizontally. Maybe I?m lost on this section

If you had, say a sink, and counter tops on both side of the sink. The space that contains the sink is not counted as space. Or in other words, it divides the counter tops. Each side of the sink would be a separate counter top.

With that said, you measure from the sink and the max distance you are allowed to go from the sink without installing a recep is 24". So if you had 27" of space you would only need the one recep at 24". The 3" additional space wouldn't require another recep because at no point on that 27" space are you more than 24" from a recep, which is what the code is saying.

You seem to be thinking you need one after every 24" which is not the case. Just that you can't have a point where there is more than 24" to a recep.

 

[resistance]

I?m well aware of the rules you specified. I guess I?m now confused by the wording! Great input little! So, based on the picture I posted, you are saying another receptacle isn?t needed. Thats 37? before the beginning of the counter top<<<isn?t the beginning a break or starting point. Seems to be the same as a door with the 6ft rule to me. I would think you would start from there and go 24?, then 48?.

 

[resistance]

Because there is a receptacle 13" from the end of the countertop, satisfying the requirement to have a receptacle within 24" from the end of the countertop.

The first receptacle from the end is 37? away>>>following the wall line

 

[GoldDigger]

The first receptacle from the end is 37? away>>>following the wall line

You could look at it that way if you see it as a corner rather than the end of the counter. Which brings us back to that question.

 

[mjf]

Yes, Resistence, I see the point you are trying to make. I don't think it is the intent of the code, (supported by the handbook picture you originally posted), and will agree the wording could certainly use some clarification.