Kitchen GFI Clarification (E3703.2)

[AndrewG185]

I swear I searched first, these forums and the web as well as scouring NEC rules; if this is covered somewhere drop a link. I'm looking for some clearing up on E3703.2 which states that the kitchen counter top receptacles shall be served by a minimum of two 20-ampere-rated branch circuits, either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply other receptacle outlets in the same kitchen, pantry, breakfast and dining area including receptacle outlets for refrigeration appliances. O.k., no problem. What I am unsure of is whether this is stating that a counter top has to have both GFI circuits over it. For example, is it acceptable for me to have 1 of my GFI protected circuits serving the main counters and the other serving the kitchen island? My inspector came in and failed me today saying I have too many receptacles on a GFI (8), and that I am required to have 2 circuits serving the counter tops. I asked him to cite me the code that I had violated and he pointed to E3901.4.2 on my plans(wrong). I told him that was code for outlets required on the island and he said he'd get back to me. He later emailed me that I violated E3703.2. I asked him to cite the code that dictates how many outlets I can have downstream from a GFI, he never responded. I don't know whether he is arguing that I have too many receptacles or that I have not provided enough circuits. I'm not here saying he is wrong, just that I have never had an inspector tell me this in 40+ kitchens I've installed. Can anyone help me out with this? Do I have too many receptacles on 1 GFI? Again, if this is covered please just post a link...first time poster here!! Thanks everyone.

 

[Ponchik]

All you need for the kitchen counter use receptacles is (2) 20Amp circuits. The same circuit serves the fridge, nook, pantry, island and dining. You can have one circuit serve one receptacle and the 2nd circuit serve the other receptacles in the kitchen. The receptacles do not have to be equally divided between the two 20Amp circuits. Now as far as the GFCI is concerned, if it is stated on the instructions that it can only have X amount of the downstream receptacles then you have to follow instructions that came with the GFCI receptacle.

 

[LEO2854]

I swear I searched first, these forums and the web as well as scouring NEC rules; if this is covered somewhere drop a link. I'm looking for some clearing up on E3703.2 which states that the kitchen counter top receptacles shall be served by a minimum of two 20-ampere-rated branch circuits, either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply other receptacle outlets in the same kitchen, pantry, breakfast and dining area including receptacle outlets for refrigeration appliances. O.k., no problem. What I am unsure of is whether this is stating that a counter top has to have both GFI circuits over it. For example, is it acceptable for me to have 1 of my GFI protected circuits serving the main counters and the other serving the kitchen island? My inspector came in and failed me today saying I have too many receptacles on a GFI (8), and that I am required to have 2 circuits serving the counter tops. I asked him to cite me the code that I had violated and he pointed to E3901.4.2 on my plans(wrong). I told him that was code for outlets required on the island and he said he'd get back to me. He later emailed me that I violated E3703.2. I asked him to cite the code that dictates how many outlets I can have downstream from a GFI, he never responded. I don't know whether he is arguing that I have too many receptacles or that I have not provided enough circuits. I'm not here saying he is wrong, just that I have never had an inspector tell me this in 40+ kitchens I've installed. Can anyone help me out with this? Do I have too many receptacles on 1 GFI? Again, if this is covered please just post a link...first time poster here!! Thanks everyone.

Welcome to the forum..

There is no limit on how many receptacles are protected by a GFCI receptacle,Why would that be an issue?:blink:


What is E3703.2?,Is that a local code?

 

[Ponchik]

Welcome to the forum..

There is no limit on how many receptacles are protected by a GFCI receptacle,Why would that be an issue?:blink: Unless it is required per GFCI instructions


What is E3703.2?,Is that a local code?

It is the ICC version of the electrical code.

http://ecodes.biz/ecodes_support/fr..._National Electrical Code Cross-Reference.pdf

 

[jumper]

It is the ICC version of the electrical code.

http://ecodes.biz/ecodes_support/fr..._National Electrical Code Cross-Reference.pdf

Sort of. It applies to residential only IIRC.

It is actually the IRC which is published by the ICC and has its own electrical code section , unlike the IBC which just references the NEC or NFPA 70 for electrical.

I note this because I believe that there was at one point an actual ICC electrical code.

 

[Ravenvalor]

He may want you to bring that second circuit over to the countertop and not just the island.

 

[LEO2854]

It is the ICC version of the electrical code.

http://ecodes.biz/ecodes_support/fr..._National Electrical Code Cross-Reference.pdf

Thanks Edward .:thumbsup:

 

[mjf]

He may want you to bring that second circuit over to the countertop and not just the island.

Yep, sounds like the AHJ isn't counting the island countertop as countertop.

 

[qcroanoke]

Yep, sounds like the AHJ isn't counting the island countertop as countertop.

E3703.2 which states that the kitchen counter top receptacles shall be served by a minimum of two 20-ampere-rated branch circuits, either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply other receptacle outlets in the same kitchen, pantry, breakfast and dining area including receptacle outlets for refrigeration appliances.


Yeah, depends on how you read it.
Technically your countertop is being fed by one circuit. Your island by the other.
If he is not calling your island "countertop" you are in violation. IMO.

 

[mjf]

E3703.2 which states that the kitchen counter top receptacles shall be served by a minimum of two 20-ampere-rated branch circuits, either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply other receptacle outlets in the same kitchen, pantry, breakfast and dining area including receptacle outlets for refrigeration appliances.


Yeah, depends on how you read it.
Technically your countertop is being fed by one circuit. Your island by the other.
If he is not calling your island "countertop" you are in violation. IMO.

Makes me ask whether or not island (counter)tops are "officially" counted as kitchen countertop.

Personally, I can't see myself ever running into this dilemma because I always alternate circuits on the countertops I wire, but I have to wonder if this is a design issue or a code issue.

 

[mwm1752]

Kitchen islands are address in the countertop section of the NEC -- why would the island not be considered a countertop serving the kitchen?

 

[JDB3]

Like previous post have said, the number of receptacles down stream. Old times, the instructions did limit the number down stream.

 

[kwired]

My kitchen doesn't have an island but most of what countertop is there is a peninsula in a way. Take that away and there is only maybe about 6 feet of counter top with a wall behind it. My minimum of two circuits is distributed to both spaces but could easily have been one circuit to regular counter and one to peninsula.

There have been threads here on small apartment kitchens where maybe the little counter space available only requires one receptacle but there still must be 2 SABC serving counter tops.

I feel that peninsulas and islands are still countertops when determining the two branch circuits minimum.

 

[qcroanoke]

Kitchen islands are address in the countertop section of the NEC -- why would the island not be considered a countertop serving the kitchen?

Inspector is quoting ICC, Not the NEC.

 

[kwired]

Inspector is quoting ICC, Not the NEC.

True, most of us have based any reply on NEC.

I can not give an answer based on ICC as I don't know anything about it.

 

[david]

CHAPTER 34
GENERAL REQUIREMENTS
This Electrical Part (Chapters 34 through 43) is produced and copyrighted by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and
is based on the 2008 National Electrical Code? (NEC?) (NFPA 70-2008), copyright 2007 National Fire Protection Association, all
rights reserved. Use of the Electrical Part is pursuant to license with the NFPA.
The titleNational ElectricalCode? and the acronymNEC? are registered trademarks of theNational Fire ProtectionAssociation,Quincy,
Massachusetts. See Appendix Q, International Residential Code Electrical Provisions/National Electrical Code Cross Reference

 

[qcroanoke]

CHAPTER 34
GENERAL REQUIREMENTS
This Electrical Part (Chapters 34 through 43) is produced and copyrighted by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and
is based on the 2008 National Electrical Code? (NEC?) (NFPA 70-2008), copyright 2007 National Fire Protection Association, all
rights reserved. Use of the Electrical Part is pursuant to license with the NFPA.
The titleNational ElectricalCode? and the acronymNEC? are registered trademarks of theNational Fire ProtectionAssociation,Quincy,
Massachusetts. See Appendix Q, International Residential Code Electrical Provisions/National Electrical Code Cross Reference

What is your point?
Is something missing from your post? Am I missing something?
Just curious.

 

[david]

my point is the residential electrical code here in pa is the same as the 2008 national electrical code . the post was for those who were not sure if theNEC was relevant to the op question

 

[kwired]

my point is the residential electrical code here in pa is the same as the 2008 national electrical code . the post was for those who were not sure if theNEC was relevant to the op question

Your quoted material doesn't say it is the same, it says it is based on 2008 NEC.

That said, unless it is pretty much copied word for word, there may be some differences even if they seem minor.

 

[AndrewG185]

Thanks for all the replies, this is awesome. In my mind, the island most definitely counts as kitchen counter top space. I work mainly with a designer and rarely install a kitchen without an island. I always have one 20amp GFI serving the counter tops along the walls and the second serving the island. All of my appliances I give dedicated circuits with single receptacles. This is the first time I've been failed for "not enough circuits" so I was really eager to hear what other professionals thought before I go back to my inspector and make my case. Thanks again everyone.