Anybody agree to install in wall ovens, jenn-air grills, other appliances as part of

[bullheimer]

do you include appliance installs in your residential job bids? my customer has a pile of them and he is an old man trying to do it himself. far as i know the general does this, which is him. i haven't ever had to do, . should i feel guilty for not volunteering or what? i'm already doing too much for free, even at $4/sq/ft. it's bad enough i have to put cords on everything nowadays as well.

 

[goldstar]

This is where you run into problems with sq. ft. pricing. If you're working for a track builder and all the houses are basically the same this pricing method may work out for you. However, problems begin because sq. ft. pricing may mean one thin to YOU but another to the builder. In his mind he can add anything to the job he wishes because you gave him a rock solid price. BTW, I would never let anyone but an employee of mine wire ANYTHING under my license.

 

[kwired]

This is where your contract should indicate what work and materials is included and maybe indicate some possibilities of what could come up that is not included in the contract. Installing some of these appliances is not only going to take more of your time, but something like a Jenn-Aire also needs ducting which they may assume you are going to provide also.

 

[masterinbama]

Some I will do it for, some I would flat out refuse.

I even helped the owner/builder on the last large custom we wired hang one of those $5000 (I guess) vent hoods.

Of course this was an engineer I do a lot of work for, I even let him nail all of his own boxes up and tag them as to what they were for before I even priced the job. It was easier to price than if it was on paper.

 

[bullheimer]

oh, it's an extra charge, don't get me wrong, we went over everything at the bid and other things added on, like the gen set, all got charged for. still, i can see the dishwasher and microwave, but jenn air actually installing it i kinda draw the line. i did put in a j-box down there for an outlet for the thing, grill top as well as the vent, so it can be plugged in. i probably could have charged extra. but when you have a screwed up company like Kitchen Aid, who has NO tech support whatsoever, refuse to give you any information, and tell you that I need to contact an appliance repair/service contractor for any information and to install it if i don't know how, then my willingness to install their equipment just went out of my hands and into the owners lap. ps, the owners wife already had me move the 120V outlet for the micro wave up into the cabinet because theyre cabinet guys put a break right over my outlet. now in addition to this micro being the wrong voltage, it also has to be hard wired!

imho, this is the complete and total fault of the people who sold them this equipment not selling them a 120V appliance. it was a huge plumbing supply company (yeah i know, plumbing?), so what do you expect i guess?

 

[GoldDigger]

oh, it's an extra charge, don't get me wrong, we went over everything at the bid and other things added on, like the gen set, all got charged for. still, i can see the dishwasher and microwave, but jenn air actually installing it i kinda draw the line. i did put in a j-box down there for an outlet for the thing, grill top as well as the vent, so it can be plugged in. i probably could have charged extra. but when you have a screwed up company like Kitchen Aid, who has NO tech support whatsoever, refuse to give you any information, and tell you that I need to contact an appliance repair/service contractor for any information and to install it if i don't know how, then my willingness to install their equipment just went out of my hands and into the owners lap. ps, the owners wife already had me move the 120V outlet for the micro wave up into the cabinet because theyre cabinet guys put a break right over my outlet. now in addition to this micro being the wrong voltage, it also has to be hard wired!

imho, this is the complete and total fault of the people who sold them this equipment not selling them a 120V appliance. it was a huge plumbing supply company (yeah i know, plumbing?), so what do you expect i guess?

Do they really need a 3600 watt microwave? That is commercial equipment, and that power level certainly justifies 240 volt.
Or did they just upsell the customer with a bigger is always better argument?

PS: We could start a discussion about how their policy not giving support information to other than a registered distributor/installer/factory trained tech is qualitatively different from this forum's policy of not giving information to DIYers. I know, I know it is somehow different, but where do you draw the line?

 

[mjf]

do you include appliance installs in your residential job bids? Sometimes

my customer has a pile of them and he is an old man trying to do it himself. far as i know the general does this, which is him. i haven't ever had to do, . should i feel guilty for not volunteering or what? No

i'm already doing too much for free, Why? Does your auto mechanic or your plumber provide services to you for free? even at $4/sq/ft.

it's bad enough i have to put cords on everything nowadays as well. don't you charge to install cords ?

I try to be extremely clear what is and what is not included in my price.

 

[qcroanoke]

PS: We could start a discussion about how their policy not giving support information to other than a registered distributor/installer/factory trained tech is qualitatively different from this forum's policy of not giving information to DIYers. I know, I know it is somehow different, but where do you draw the line?

I think you mean their policy of not telling or giving advice is no different that this forum's policy to someone not qualified.
I agree, how can we get upset when we are denied information if we aren't qualified to use it? According to them.
JMO

 

[JDBrown]

I think you mean their policy of not telling or giving advice is no different that this forum's policy to someone not qualified.
I agree, how can we get upset when we are denied information if we aren't qualified to use it? According to them.
JMO

That's a fair point, and one I hadn't thought of. I, as a homeowner, am qualified to do my own electrical installs according to my AHJ -- but not according to the rules of this forum. Bullheimer, as an electrical contractor, is qualified to do this electrical install according to his AHJ -- but not according to Kitchen Aid.

Of course, I didn't buy a product from the Mike Holt Forum with the expectation that, since it's legal, I would be able to install it myself. So there's a bit of a difference there.

It seems to me that if a company is going to make a statement that only its own "qualified installers" are allowed to install its products, then you should only be able to purchase those products through a "qualified installer," with installation understood to be part of the package deal. If I, as a consumer, don't like that, I can go buy some other brand.

Bullheimer, you might want to consider telling your customer that Kitchen Aid only allows their own network of people to install their products, and you don't want to cause any problems with his warranty. That would be one way of getting out of having to install the thing.

 

[cowboyjwc]

We always set the appliances, but then again we only did custom homes.

 

[mjf]

We always set the appliances, but then again we only did custom homes.

I'm sure the time involved was figured into the price of the job.

 

[kwired]

It seems to me that if a company is going to make a statement that only its own "qualified installers" are allowed to install its products, then you should only be able to purchase those products through a "qualified installer," with installation understood to be part of the package deal. If I, as a consumer, don't like that, I can go buy some other brand.

There are some products that will only sell to people they authorize, then there are those that don't care as long as they can make a sale.

 

[GoldDigger]

There are some products that will only sell to people they authorize, then there are those that don't care as long as they can make a sale.

And there are some that prefer to sell only to their own dealers, but if you get the product some other way all they do is void the warranty.

 

[hurk27]

You need to think about liability before doing any work that is not in your line of work, most liability insurance we get will not cover you when things go south if your doing installations outside of your scope of work listed with your insurance company, before you ever do something like this always check with your insurance company first to make sure you have the coverage or you could end up in a big mess, it's one thing to just plug in an appliance but to run duct work up through the attic through the roof it's a whole new ball game, who's going to pay if the flashing leaks, of if the wrong type of duct is run and a fire happens and spreads into the attic because you used the flex duct instead of hard pipe.

I know of at least two EC's who wound up in court because they thought they were helping the customer by installing their appliances, on one the EC installed a washer and hooked up the hoses and drain, he somehow broke the end of the hose that didn't leak at first but at a later time it blew apart and flooded the upstairs laundry and destroyed the kitchen below it as well as the fully finished basement while the homeowners were not home, his liability insurance refused to pay since he was doing work outside of his insurance scope of work, the damage was over $60k.

The other one was where the EC hooked up a gas line to a dryer that leaked and when the furnace kicked on it blew out the backside of the house, again lucky that no one was home, but again his liability insurance wouldn't pay and the home owners insurance went after him and his company, he got lucky because he had some kind of general casualty clause that covered it, but trust me he was out of business just the same as his insurance dropped him like a hot potato.

So as much as I like to help people, when the work is out of the scope of my regular duties as an EC, I just politely refuse and explain that my insurance would not coven me if anything were to go wrong.

Just something to keep in mind.

 

[mjf]

You need to think about liability before doing any work that is not in your line of work, most liability insurance we get will not cover you when things go south if your doing installations outside of your scope of work listed with your insurance company, before you ever do something like this always check with your insurance company first to make sure you have the coverage or you could end up in a big mess, it's one thing to just plug in an appliance but to run duct work up through the attic through the roof it's a whole new ball game, who's going to pay if the flashing leaks, of if the wrong type of duct is run and a fire happens and spreads into the attic because you used the flex duct instead of hard pipe.

I know of at least two EC's who wound up in court because they thought they were helping the customer by installing their appliances, on one the EC installed a washer and hooked up the hoses and drain, he somehow broke the end of the hose that didn't leak at first but at a later time it blew apart and flooded the upstairs laundry and destroyed the kitchen below it as well as the fully finished basement while the homeowners were not home, his liability insurance refused to pay since he was doing work outside of his insurance scope of work, the damage was over $60k.

The other one was where the EC hooked up a gas line to a dryer that leaked and when the furnace kicked on it blew out the backside of the house, again lucky that no one was home, but again his liability insurance wouldn't pay and the home owners insurance went after him and his company, he got lucky because he had some kind of general casualty clause that covered it, but trust me he was out of business just the same as his insurance dropped him like a hot potato.

So as much as I like to help people, when the work is out of the scope of my regular duties as an EC, I just politely refuse and explain that my insurance would not coven me if anything were to go wrong.

Just something to keep in mind.

Great point!

 

[kwired]

You need to think about liability before doing any work that is not in your line of work, most liability insurance we get will not cover you when things go south if your doing installations outside of your scope of work listed with your insurance company, before you ever do something like this always check with your insurance company first to make sure you have the coverage or you could end up in a big mess, it's one thing to just plug in an appliance but to run duct work up through the attic through the roof it's a whole new ball game, who's going to pay if the flashing leaks, of if the wrong type of duct is run and a fire happens and spreads into the attic because you used the flex duct instead of hard pipe.

I know of at least two EC's who wound up in court because they thought they were helping the customer by installing their appliances, on one the EC installed a washer and hooked up the hoses and drain, he somehow broke the end of the hose that didn't leak at first but at a later time it blew apart and flooded the upstairs laundry and destroyed the kitchen below it as well as the fully finished basement while the homeowners were not home, his liability insurance refused to pay since he was doing work outside of his insurance scope of work, the damage was over $60k.

The other one was where the EC hooked up a gas line to a dryer that leaked and when the furnace kicked on it blew out the backside of the house, again lucky that no one was home, but again his liability insurance wouldn't pay and the home owners insurance went after him and his company, he got lucky because he had some kind of general casualty clause that covered it, but trust me he was out of business just the same as his insurance dropped him like a hot potato.

So as much as I like to help people, when the work is out of the scope of my regular duties as an EC, I just politely refuse and explain that my insurance would not coven me if anything were to go wrong.

Just something to keep in mind.

I get your point, but IMO the contractor that got sued over connecting the hoses to the washer needed a better attorney and or better insurance, that one is just plain ridiculous.

 

[mkgrady]

I get your point, but IMO the contractor that got sued over connecting the hoses to the washer needed a better attorney and or better insurance, that one is just plain ridiculous.

You are suggesting his insurance should have paid? Not disagreeing but why should his insurance company pay?

 

[kwired]

You are suggesting his insurance should have paid? Not disagreeing but why should his insurance company pay?

In today's legal system I guess probably not, but where do does one draw the line at what you are qualified to do? Should I even be allowed to open the door to enter/exit the clients home or do I need to have millwork qualifications in case the door malfunctions. Do you need a special license to attach a standard hose to a standard hose bibb no matter what the application is? Just because the EC connected it doesn't mean that it leaked because he connected it, could have been a defective hose, or maybe owner was negligent in some way to cause the leak.

I guess as far as insurance goes, yes maybe they do need to know just what kind of work you are planning to do, even when it is "borderline" on other trade work. Can I frame something that primarily serves as a support for electrical equipment, or do I have to have proper licensing or authorization from insurance or else subcontract even the simplest related tasks?

 

[hurk27]

In today's legal system I guess probably not, but where do does one draw the line at what you are qualified to do? Should I even be allowed to open the door to enter/exit the clients home or do I need to have millwork qualifications in case the door malfunctions. Do you need a special license to attach a standard hose to a standard hose bibb no matter what the application is? Just because the EC connected it doesn't mean that it leaked because he connected it, could have been a defective hose, or maybe owner was negligent in some way to cause the leak.

I guess as far as insurance goes, yes maybe they do need to know just what kind of work you are planning to do, even when it is "borderline" on other trade work. Can I frame something that primarily serves as a support for electrical equipment, or do I have to have proper licensing or authorization from insurance or else subcontract even the simplest related tasks?

The best answer to this is like I said in my post, talk to your agent, let them do the home work and find out how much their underwriters will cover you doing work outside your scope of trade, it's always better to find out before hand than after, we must remember we live in a sue crazy world these days, we are our only protectors and we can do this by getting the knowledge before something happens because after is just too late.

Trust me homeowners will say all kinds of things to get you to do other types of work so they don't have to find someone to do it or do it themselves, and it can be very tempting in this economy to make a little extra money, but when things go south guess who they will blame, and remember one thing you can't sign off on liability even if the home owner gives you a signed sheet of paper saying so, in most courts of law it is worthless.

The thing here is each one of us will be under different laws in different states, so there is no one answer that fits for all of us, this is why it is up to you to find out, and seek for the truth not just what someone told you, I seen many burned by trusting hearsay then finding out to late that what they were told was wrong, I caught our company lawyer one time giving us some misdirected advice, lets just say he didn't last too long when my boss found out he was setting us up for a fall, you would think why would he do this, well the short answer is greed since he would stand to make some money if we got in trouble, so my advice is do your own homework, be your own protector.

 

[kwired]

The best answer to this is like I said in my post, talk to your agent, let them do the home work and find out how much their underwriters will cover you doing work outside your scope of trade, it's always better to find out before hand than after, we must remember we live in a sue crazy world these days, we are our only protectors and we can do this by getting the knowledge before something happens because after is just too late.

Trust me homeowners will say all kinds of things to get you to do other types of work so they don't have to find someone to do it or do it themselves, and it can be very tempting in this economy to make a little extra money, but when things go south guess who they will blame, and remember one thing you can't sign off on liability even if the home owner gives you a signed sheet of paper saying so, in most courts of law it is worthless.

The thing here is each one of us will be under different laws in different states, so there is no one answer that fits for all of us, this is why it is up to you to find out, and seek for the truth not just what someone told you, I seen many burned by trusting hearsay then finding out to late that what they were told was wrong, I caught our company lawyer one time giving us some misdirected advice, lets just say he didn't last too long when my boss found out he was setting us up for a fall, you would think why would he do this, well the short answer is greed since he would stand to make some money if we got in trouble, so my advice is do your own homework, be your own protector.

We can take this a slightly different direction and something I have done many times before but is still very similar. Say owner has a vehicle that needs to be moved, or since I do a lot of work on farms, I have needed farm machinery moved in order to be able to work on something. I have many times moved such vehicles or machinery myself, but should I damage something I suppose my insurance could say sorry, but you shouldn't have been operating that equipment. I even get elderly people that just want help while you are there to reach something on a high shelf, or maybe bring something out of an attic or basement, but in today's lawsuit happy world I guess we should be turning down such requests just in case something should go wrong